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Why do people hate the "men can pee but women can't" trope?


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3 hours ago, DesperateJill said:

I have made numerous posts about this very situation and it has been inspired many stories from my own personal experience. Believe me it's absolutely torture in those situations. Maybe it's not forbidden directly but it's basically societally assumed that women will simply continue holding it in a situation like that, where people will judge you if you happen to pop a squat. This is in fact very common and something I have experienced a real lot and I think that that is why it is my personal favorite trope of all, just because I have experienced a lot and realize that it really is a form of psychological torture to go through, as overly dramatic as that sounds. But when you experiencing it regularly believe me you really really notice it when the guys are peeing on the side of the road and you are holding it for many more hours.

I did make an entire post about this where I mentioned that in situations like that sometimes when one woman speaks up more women are likely to follow. Like I think a lot of people are afraid or embarrassed to be the only one admitting they need to go to the bathroom, it's only when others break the ice and start speaking up do you feel like you have been granted permission by the group at large to suddenly demand attention to your own needs. But if nobody speaks up it is just naturally assumed that the women will continue holding and suffering in silence for however long.


I think it's similar to what the me too movement, those things went on for years and nobody ever spoke of them, but then when some women started speaking up than other women felt safe and speaking up about it as well. Again I'm not going to compare not getting to pee to sexual assault or anything much more serrious like that, but it's a similar situation of women mostly being silent about a long-standing situation and it's only after a couple of people were brave enough to demand attention or justice that other women felt comfortable coming forward, and that's very much a societal thing more than an individual thing and I think it applies to something like women even asking permission or demanding relief. Society does keep women in a state of silence about most of these things.

Thankyou so much for taking the time to write up your thoughts in so much detail. I have very much enjoyed a lot of your stories over the years, and as such you are a writer that I have a lot of respect for. As you say, I am very much aware that it is a trope you work on a lot, and you are right, it sounds like absolute torture.

The psychology is really interesting (and to be honest, probably a little uncomfortable) for me, because, without question, my "fetish" is desperation, WAY more than actual peeing, and the psychology of the situation is something that turns me on immeasurably. The more "psychological torture" that a situation creates, the more it turns me on. The pain, the helplessness and the fear of humiliation all play a part, and the fact that a person is pushing themselves into positions way beyond where they are comfortable, because the alternative is even more unthinkable, is something that I can't get enough of.

Certainly, in my fantasies, I push the desperation a lot, and when I have sightings of actual desperation situations, there is no doubt that it turns me on, however, I would never want someone that I love to be forced into a situation that is as hopeless as the ones my mind creates, so it is something, as I say that leaves me conflicted.

The men can go, girls have to hold though is a trope that I love quite because it is so unfair, and almost cruel, for the women involved. Do I know that is probably a bit wrong, yes, does it turn me on though, absolutely yes, way more than it probably should!

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I'm not really interested in the sex/gender disadvantage specifically, so much as a prompt for desperation to happen, combined with the envy of one person anticipating being allowed to pee and then having to wait while knowing someone else got to go doing something for me. I can't really explain the latter part, it's just part of my fetish. This does not even have to involve gender at all. There are stories I have read where one woman gets to squat while another looks out for her, and then someone arrives so the lookout has to hold it, and those check off the same boxes for me.

In real life, my SO knows I fantasize about this and likes that I enjoy her desperation, so she appreciates that I enjoy it when she unintentionally gets into one of these situations (rare), and also intentionally gets into or exacerbates situations like this as a form of play (more frequent). I feel uncomfortable about situations where this happens to women other than my girlfriend completely against their control in real life - it turns me on, but I recognize fundamentally that these women are trapped in an uncomfortable situation against their will and not aware of or trying to participate in some sort of show for me, so I try my best to ignore it usually. I guess that's not really specific to "unfair" situations.

I will say I sometimes get pretty bothered at people over-generalizing about sex and gender differences, and I've also found myself a little uncomfortable by how much some people hold up long women's bathroom lines or lack of opportunities for women to pee as the way the world SHOULD work and something they think is good and they want to continue and that a woman's role is to suffer etc, because well... it's expressing an actual desire for suffering to continue in a way that unfairly affects women, for the sake of sexual gratification. By contrast I don't feel uncomfortable with people enjoying things they have seen, stories they were told, etc, if they did not cause them and don't express the sentiment that this is just and the way the world should work. I also don't really feel uncomfortable about it coming up in fiction, because that's just fantasies.

I also think the frequency with which this actually happens gets exaggerated a lot. Usually these unfair situations manifest as long lines for women, which is for all but the longest lines a relatively short delay in relief. Most people don't regularly pee outside in mixed company unless they are desperate in my experience, and women who are that desperate will frequently pee outside. This situation has come up a couple times when it was just me and my girlfriend, where she has said if she had a penis she would stop to pee on the side of the road or use a bottle, but this has happened only a couple times in years of knowing her, and also if we were both desperate at the same time I would try to find us both an appropriate place to pee unless she specifically told me to go now instead of waiting for her. The last thing I've seen is that women will sometimes ignore a modest need to pee to wait for a cleaner toilet, and sometimes can misjudge how long it will take or how bad they will have to go and end up really desperate (this has happened a few times with my girlfriend), but this isn't really the "women aren't allowed to pee while men are" scenario you are describing.

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Idk, but at least as far as I have seen, (And keep in mind here that I am extremely biased towards 'well written' in a literary sense rather than story sense desperation stories since that's what I'm into / certain writing styles or too many obvious errors just pull me out of the story.) most of the stories that feature the trope don't feature it for the sake of featuring the trope.

The trope exists for a reason. It is a reflection of the general reality.  On the average most biologically (equipped... not necessarily genetically) males have a lower standard for when they are willing to pee in a more generally public setting. Thus, it's not actually a case of can/can't, but of will/won't.

I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions. There are most definitely stories built around the "men can pee, but woman can't" trope, but by and large most of the stories that have the trope in them is more a reflection of the attitudes of the individual characters in them.

For the most part the trope is, and never has been, about the sex or gender of the individuals. Or rather it's not a trope that is about creating that scenario, but rather a trope in that that scenario happens to fit into the story.

Correlation is not causation. Stories that feature the "men can pee, but woman can't" trope aren't necessarily doing so to create the in story situation, but rather given the in story situation that is how the characters react which if done right IS reflective of the average reality and, given the particular story setting, might be even more appropriate to the story.

Essentially, I hate it when people try to make it about sex when it's actually just "this is a trend that exists in reality that also exists in this story since the setting in this story is similar to reality".

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I just think it's boring and overdone, and I really can't relate to the psychological appeal of it. It's never completely taken me out of a story though, but if I'm reading a new piece of fiction I want new tropes. I already have my stash of stories with the familiar stuff and I guess I'm just no longer interested in the repeats after sticking around for so long. 

@secretomoact explains this point perfectly, I think. 

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17 minutes ago, Drip Drop said:

I just think it's boring and overdone, and I really can't relate to the psychological appeal of it. It's never completely taken me out of a story though, but if I'm reading a new piece of fiction I want new tropes. I already have my stash of stories with the familiar stuff and I guess I'm just no longer interested in the repeats after sticking around for so long. 

@secretomoact explains this point perfectly, I think. 

There's only so many tropes though, so eventually you're bound to run out of new ones.  My motto for omo stories is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and for me these tried and true tropes work well enough that I don't mind if they've been done quite a bit and I don't need stories to re-invent the wheel to keep my attention.

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Once again this is a topic that I have a real lot to say about so everybody's comments are interesting to me, so this will probably end up being another really long response.


@NotACat
"The second case is more particular to the stories written by a few particular authors. In those stories the dynamic between the men and women feels a lot like more of a dom/sub story where the dom is forcing the sub to hold and teasing them. In that context, role play between two people in that sort of relationship, it can work. When it's applied to every man interacting with every woman in a story, it gets awkward and doesn't really work. It just reads like literally everyone in the story has a piss and bdsm kink and acts it out with anyone, any time. See above about pulling me out of the story."


I think the desperation is sort of a BDSM situation. And while it's true that in a situation like that where every interaction between every man and woman doesn't necessarily imply that everybody has a BDSM kink, I feel like the dynamic exist regardless of whether that is true or not. I mean a lot of it has to do with the character's perception, as you really don't know if people have that kink, and in most cases most people probably don't have that kink.


Like when I was working at my job outdoors and I was desperate and the men were peeing I have to assume that the majority of them probably didn't have a kink for this. If I was perceiving it it was probably me reading a lot more into that situation due to my lack of social skills and my tendency to obsess and fixate, but I definitely think that that dynamic exists regardless of how the others feel about the situation.


Like a couple of the guys in my group would basically sometimes make a comment on the fact that the women didn't go to the bathroom or they occasionally might seem to find it amusing, but I would wager that the majority of them didn't have a kink for it. There was only one instance where I think that one of my coworkers might have been kind of getting off on the situation, and that was during the first time when I had my summer job where I was the only woman in the group and there was one of my male coworkers who definitely seemed like he might have been exploiting the situation or really enjoying seeing me in that situation. Again I can't prove it, but in two years and having eight male coworkers and two female coworkers there's maybe only one case in which I felt maybe one of them was getting a little bit titillated by the situation.


But again regardless of whether they view that as a situation like that it felt like that situation to me. To me when one person is desperate and the others aren't it creates a power dynamic. Know whether anybody is going to exploit that dynamic is another case altogether, but I feel like the dynamic just naturally exists between a person who is desperate and a person who isn't. Again it may just feel that way because I am interpreting it that way, but I feel that any situation where there is a group of people who can go to the bathroom and others can't, usually in a case where the women are holding it and the men are not I feel that that dynamic, that psychological tension is still present.


@pguy69


"Thankyou so much for taking the time to write up your thoughts in so much detail. I have very much enjoyed a lot of your stories over the years, and as such you are a writer that I have a lot of respect for. As you say, I am very much aware that it is a trope you work on a lot, and you are right, it sounds like absolute torture."


I definitely think about this far too much, but having been in that situation it really was truly mind-boggling. I mean I wrote about these situations before I had experienced them on a really regular basis, so to be thrust into that situation with my unique slant on this issue I think puts it into a pretty stark perspective. Like I knew a situation like that is torturous even before being in it but once you have been in it you truly don't realize just what it is until you have experienced that on a fairly regular basis.
The reason that I work on this trope so much is just because it's something that I have personally experienced a real lot firsthand and like that saying goes, write what you know and I know this from personal experience.


"The psychology is really interesting (and to be honest, probably a little uncomfortable) for me, because, without question, my "fetish" is desperation, WAY more than actual peeing, and the psychology of the situation is something that turns me on immeasurably. The more "psychological torture" that a situation creates, the more it turns me on. The pain, the helplessness and the fear of humiliation all play a part, and the fact that a person is pushing themselves into positions way beyond where they are comfortable, because the alternative is even more unthinkable, is something that I can't get enough of."


I find that the psychology of it is the truly fascinating part, and again this could just be because I have lots of psychological issues myself, I am sure that most of the people who were in that situation with me were not thinking about it in the same way I was, and just because of the fact that I had a fetish made it much more of a fixation for me than it otherwise would be.


But this actually extends to a lot of my stuff as well, even in my non-fetish writing that has nothing to do with pee desperation or BDSM or anything like that, even in a lot of my fiction which is dystopia or things of that nature, I focus very much on the psychology of the characters in those situations, and one of the big themes in a lot of my serious non-fetish related non-omorashi writing also is power relationships between people in general, basically how society creates power structures that are often oppressive and things of that nature. So I think that it just naturally seems to slip into my omorashi writing as well. But believe me it's not exclusive only to this type of stuff I write, a lot of my more serious stuff also focuses on this. I'm very interested very much in the psychology of people in these type of situations.


To me I'm very much into getting into the character's head simply because being in that situation myself I really get into my own thoughts and feelings about it. So I am very much a writer who gives you my characters thoughts and feelings, really gets into their inner monologues. I realize that some people don't like that kind of writing, and people who don't like that kind of writing probably would not be fans of my stuff, but if you like that kind of stuff that is definitely the type of stuff that I get into in all of my writing, not just my fetish and omorashi stuff. I am very much a get into the character's head kind of writer. Some people have told me that I would probably be a good therapist or psychologist myself if I didn't have my own issues, but in my opinion most people who go into those professions have issues of their own.


"Certainly, in my fantasies, I push the desperation a lot, and when I have sightings of actual desperation situations, there is no doubt that it turns me on, however, I would never want someone that I love to be forced into a situation that is as hopeless as the ones my mind creates, so it is something, as I say that leaves me conflicted."


I think that a desperation fetish is kind of conflicting in that regard because you are taking advantage of the fact that you're enjoying people and situations that are unfair and brutal and everything like that. An interesting thing I have found talking to people over the years is that people have said that while they would never force someone into that situation in most cases, they feel that if it happens naturally and they are blameless they can enjoy it because they don't feel guilty since they didn't cause it. It is something interesting, like I would never force somebody into the situations that I have found myself in numerous times because I know with those situations are like, and yet when I see somebody in a situation like that it does trigger the excitement factor in your brain.


Like I have said a couple of times on the forum there is also the conflict that I kind of like seeing women in situations where they don't want the desperation, where they are actively aggravated by it. Again I wouldn't push people into that situation because I wouldn't want somebody to do the same to me as I have experienced that myself, but when you see a person in a situation like that in a truly grueling situation where they are going out of their mind that is by far the most exciting situation of all. So yeah there is sort of a feeling of guilty pleasure taking pleasure in the suffering and discomfort of others, but at the same time just the intense nature of it is what makes it so exciting.


And once again having been in that situation myself on numerous occasions I know how terrible it is to be in that situation and yet as long as I am not the one in that situation when I see others in that situation it is exciting to see. Of course when I am in the situation like that I am the first person to complain, but that is why do not get too judgmental about people who enjoy that, because I know what it's like from both sides of it so it's hard to be judgmental about it as you really can't control what you are turned on by even if it makes you feel conflicted.


"The men can go, girls have to hold though is a trope that I love quite because it is so unfair, and almost cruel, for the women involved. Do I know that is probably a bit wrong, yes, does it turn me on though, absolutely yes, way more than it probably should!"


I think that all, or at least most desperation involve some aspect of unfairness. Like I have said numerous times I feel that if I lived in a society that was more fair when it came to these issues I probably would never have even developed this fetish in the first place. The fact that I fixate on this trope in my own fetish is because these are the personal things that I have experienced myself, they were what form the fetish, and the formative experiences take what form that you're going to fixate on in your own fantasies and fetishes.


And that again is where there is a conflict, because you know it's unfair, you know it's a terrible situation, and when you are in that situation it's infuriating, and yet despite the fact that you are infuriated by the situation you can't help but be turned on by it. I mean as much is I hated it all the time when I was holding it outdoors all day it was infuriating me like nothing else, and yet by the time I got home I was so fucking turned on by it that it was almost unimaginable, even though I would never willingly put myself into a situation like that you can't help but be turned on by the situation when you are in it, even if it's the result of total aggravation and frustration.
I don't think that this applies just a desperation, when you look at most stories, whether true or fictional, they are mostly based on conflict. Without conflict, without tension, without some unfairness that the character is trying to go against there really isn't a story. In a world where women could easily relieve themselves in every situation there would be no Genesis for people to form a fetish for seeing women not getting to go to the bathroom. If it didn't exist in the first place, if this unfairness didn't exist the fetish probably wouldn't exist either.


And yes that is sort of a cornerstone of the fetish, unless the woman is holding voluntarily for sexual gratification, pretty much all desperation involves the fact that you are enjoying seeing somebody in a cruel or unfair situation for even getting off on being in that situation yourself. Like I said in a perfect world it would be good to have everything fair, and you wouldn't want to put yourself in those situations, and yet you find yourself turned on by them. It's sort of like how I used to hate having to hold it all the time when I was younger but over time it developed into a fetish, a fetish that was born entirely out of frustration.


So when you are in a situation where there is a huge line for the ladies room next to an empty men's room and you are ready to explode you are infuriated by the unfairness and injustice of it, but that's what creates the tension, that's what makes the whole thing exciting, because there is a conflict to be watched and resolved and seeing the person struggle with that is what is making it interesting. That is why a lot of people found my experiences interesting, it was funny seeing a person like that who had talked a big game about all of this stuff over the years having to actually experience it on a regular level. It was awful, it was infuriating, it was frustrating, and yet it was probably the single most interesting and defining experience of a lifetime.


In my case it even takes weird forms where sometimes when I am on websites where people are talking about the lack of potty parity and seeing person after person dismissing the concerns as trivial or unnecessary or opposing giving more toilets to women, there is almost like a rage high that you get off of that, like you read that and it makes you infuriated but at the same time it excites you in some way. So I feel that the conflicting relationship with desperation is that it's something that getting you off on the fact that it is unfair and cruel, and that is probably why it falls into the BDSM category, you are taking pleasure in pain, even if that was unwanted pain you can't help but find some aspect of it arousing and exciting.


And you can see just from this response how I am already getting into the psychology of it again analyzing every little minor detail, that's just the way I work, I'm interested in getting into the whys and wherefores behind everything. Some people don't like to analyze things and just like to go with it, but I am a person who hyper- analyzes every little thing and I am interested in all the nitty-gritty details.


@provox


"I'm not really interested in the sex/gender disadvantage specifically, so much as a prompt for desperation to happen, combined with the envy of one person anticipating being allowed to pee and then having to wait while knowing someone else got to go doing something for me. I can't really explain the latter part, it's just part of my fetish. This does not even have to involve gender at all. There are stories I have read where one woman gets to squat while another looks out for her, and then someone arrives so the lookout has to hold it, and those check off the same boxes for me."


This is absolutely true and I agree here. For me it's not about the sex gender disadvantage, even if I do focus on that aspect of the story much of the time, simply because that's the truth of the matter. It's just the truth that in a situation where one group of people can pee and the other group can't or one person can pee and the other person can't it often is as a result of the fact that men can relieve themselves more easily. But that is not by any means the only situation of somebody getting to go and and the other not getting to go.


In fact as a lesbian I find it more interesting in situations where there is a dynamic between women, which is something that I focus on and a lot of my stories as well. Like I said although there is the unfairness of men being able to relieve themselves when women can't, there are also plenty of situations where some women are able to relieve themselves when other women are not, and those situations are even more tense and frustrating.


Like the ones that I bring up the most, and which I based my recent novella on, was a situation where some women were able to go to the bathroom at a rest stop and others weren't and they had to interact with the people who did get to go when they didn't and the psychological tension that creates. To me that was even more interesting than stories about men getting to pee and women not getting to pee.


In fact it also creates an interesting dynamic between the same gender where there is that conflict between other women based on the fact that if there is a limited amount of time to go to the bathroom it is like there is almost like a war going on between the ones who get to go and those who don't. To me it's even more frustrating to be with a woman who got to go when I didn't get to go than it is to be with a man who got to go when I didn't get to go. I mean men get to go simply because it's easier for them to relieve themselves, but with women you have the competition for the bathroom, where you are all like adversaries all fighting each other for relief or for a limited number of toilets. To me that conflict is even more interesting and that was in the same sex dynamic. So you are right that it doesn't have to involve a sexual divide like that, it can definitely be a conflict between one woman getting to go and another woman not getting to go, and those stories are even more interesting to me, and again something I speak of from personal experience.


So you are right in some sense it's not so much a matter of the fact that one sex is getting to go in the other is in, it's that summer getting to go while others are forced to wait, and being forced to wait while you know others are relieving themselves as one of the most purest forms of torture and one of the best things for creating tension in a story. You certainly wouldn't want to really be in that situation but when you are in a situation like that it certainly gives you a dramatic story to tell afterwards for sure.


"In real life, my SO knows I fantasize about this and likes that I enjoy her desperation, so she appreciates that I enjoy it when she unintentionally gets into one of these situations (rare), and also intentionally gets into or exacerbates situations like this as a form of play (more frequent). I feel uncomfortable about situations where this happens to women other than my girlfriend completely against their control in real life - it turns me on, but I recognize fundamentally that these women are trapped in an uncomfortable situation against their will and not aware of or trying to participate in some sort of show for me, so I try my best to ignore it usually. I guess that's not really specific to "unfair" situations."


I can relate to this as well, and how it's also a conflict. And here is a part where it gets into a real major conflict for me. Like I have said I kind of enjoy seeing people in involuntary situations where they are aggravated by the desperation. Again I would never try to get somebody in that situation intentionally, but when I see someone in a situation like that of genuine dire did unplanned desperation those are by far the most exciting situations to witness.


However there is the conflict over the fact that I know from experience what it is like to be in that uncomfortable situation against my will, and where I am certainly not putting on a show for others. I have started a topic about this before where I have sometimes said that it's one of the envies of being a female fan of female desperation that guys get to watch us wiggling and squirming in line or desperately looking for a place to go while they can relieve themselves without any wait. Basically guys get to watch us in those situations without having to participate in those situations themselves, what I call getting a free show, where you get to watch without having to experience.


But I can say from experience that almost every situation where I have seen some really excellent female desperation has also been a situation where I was myself one of the desperate women and was so focused on holding it that you almost don't really concern yourself with the fact that other women also have to pee. You are just so focused on holding it in yourself that that takes precedence over enjoying watching others squirm.


I frequently bring up somebody that I chatted with many years ago but have since lost contact with who would talk about all of these ideas for getting women into desperate situations and how it would be fun for us to put women in these situations, but the one thing that he kept forgetting in his quest to see all of these women desperate, is there any situation that he conspired with to put women in a desperate situation, if I was with him in that situation I would be on the receiving end and he just didn't seem to get that. He didn't seem to get why I didn't think it would be funny to say lock a ladies room at a crowded place where we were because at some point I would need it myself!


But at the same time I find myself non-judgmental about others who take pleasure in seeing people in these uncomfortable situations that women are in against their own will. Although it's infuriating to be in that situation, during the year when I found myself in that situation pretty much constantly on a regular basis, I really couldn't get mad at people for enjoying seeing me in that situation when situation reversed if I was in the role of the observer I would be enjoying every last minute of it, which is precisely why some have said that I am a hypocrite and that it was poetic justice for me to have to be constantly on the receiving end of something I would like to be on the observer end of almost perpetually. It was certainly eye-opening to say the least.


"I will say I sometimes get pretty bothered at people over-generalizing about sex and gender differences, and I've also found myself a little uncomfortable by how much some people hold up long women's bathroom lines or lack of opportunities for women to pee as the way the world SHOULD work and something they think is good and they want to continue and that a woman's role is to suffer etc, because well... it's expressing an actual desire for suffering to continue in a way that unfairly affects women, for the sake of sexual gratification. By contrast I don't feel uncomfortable with people enjoying things they have seen, stories they were told, etc, if they did not cause them and don't express the sentiment that this is just and the way the world should work. I also don't really feel uncomfortable about it coming up in fiction, because that's just fantasies."


This is again another area where I can relate and where it brings up conflicting feelings. Yes I enjoy seeing women in desperate situations and find those situations exciting than I am in them, even if they are unwanted, but I certainly don't think that that's the way the world should be, in fact as many know some people have called me a bathroom social justice warrior in that regard, because I realize very much that it's wrong and I think that that is not the way the world should be, and yet the that is the way the world inevitably is. Again when you are not the one directly responsible for that you don't really have to feel any guilt at enjoying those situations, and I would not blame or condemn anyone for enjoying those unfair situations.


And yet as a woman who has had to deal with the practical side of dying for a piss and really really wanting one, it is sort of a weird feeling particularly to be in an omorashi community, or even non-omorashi communities. Like even if you go to a serious website where people are discussing lack of toilets, potty parity and things of that nature and you see large numbers of people opposing it or dismissing it or laughing at it, and at the same time you are thinking, maybe these people are right, maybe that's just the way things are, but either way it's probably going to remain that way, on the one hand you are thinking that's going to result in lots of desperate situations, but then on the other hand you think that's probably going to result in a lot of inconvenience and desperation for me that I do not want.


And during my year when I was in frequent desperate situations that were really unfair and where people were sort of taking pleasure in that, I mean again I'm not criticizing them, I wouldn't share my experiences if I didn't want people to enjoy reading about them or hearing about them, but there is sort of a conflicting feeling when you realize that your sudden popularity over the last year is due to a large part of the fact that people are really taking a lot of gratification and excitement in witnessing your predicament.


The interesting thing is that I have spoken to a lot of guys about this who have a similar conflict where they say that they feel sympathy for my situation, and yet at the same time the thought that my situation could continue is a gratifying thought. They will say I don't want you to be in a situation like that against your will or in unfair situation where you're going to be suffering, yet at the same time if I am since they are not the cause there is no real reason for them to feel guilty about enjoying it, and I kind of agree with that, because again situation reversed if it was somebody else in that situation and I wasn't the one in that situation I would enjoy hearing about somebody else in that situation just as much, so I couldn't really criticize others for enjoying that without being a hypocrite.


And then there is also the conflict that recently I have come around to some degree of resignation and grudging acceptance that some situations are unfair and that there couldn't be anything to do about it, or that it is unlikely to be resolved anytime soon. So there is that conflicting feeling of of yes this is probably going to be continuing, there is probably going to be a continued situation of unfairness, I am likely to be repeatedly on the receiving end of it, and yet it would be producing so many wonderful desperation situations that could potentially be witnessed, which once again brings me back to that person I was mentioning earlier, the one who liked the idea of locking ladies rooms or the continuing idea of being a lack of ladies restrooms, or now with Covid with a lot of the bathrooms being closed and resulting in lots of women experiencing more desperation.


I am online friends with large numbers of guys who very much enjoy female desperation, including plenty who while they feel some guilt at enjoying it, at the same time wouldn't necessarily want the situation to change. I fully acknowledge that there are a lot of guys out there, and women as well, who really do feel that this should be the way things are, there should be long lines for women, women should have to hold it and it's good that this is the way the world is. Again I can't bring myself to criticize them for enjoying something like that, but again when they are talking about how great it is to see women deprived of bathrooms or stuck waiting in line and everything like that and you are in that situation yourself regularly it's a weird feeling.


Like I think that one situation that perfectly summed up the experience was one of my days where I was at my job holding it all day and I was chatting with a guy who was telling me about all these wonderful female desperation sightings he has seen, about how it's great to see woman court short of toilets, and yet I am sitting there listening enthusiastically to the stories but at the same time I am sitting there with my legs crossed desperately wishing I had a bathroom, and I am thinking to myself this seems so wrong, and yet somehow this is normal, this is the way things are and that this is the way things are likely to remain, and it just sort of a weird feeling to acknowledge as a desperate woman when you see other people who are cheering over this lack of opportunities for women to relieve themselves and enjoying every last moment of it.


But when I think of the future, think of the possibility that I may once again be in one of those situations where I regularly have to hold it, and thinking how much so many people are looking forward to that possibility, again totally not going to judge them for enjoying that, but it's a weird feeling to know that people are enjoying you in that situation, enjoying the unfairness of it and knowing that even if they feel sympathetic and feel that it is wrong, but nonetheless it's likely to continue like this and there probably isn't anything to be done about it.


So yeah I'm not going to criticize men or women who enjoy seeing people in these unfair situations or even think that that's the way it should be, it shouldn't be that way, but it is that way, so I'm not going to get mad at people enjoying something even if it's unfair and even if I am very much on the receiving end of that. So if I find myself in that situation regularly on a long-term basis in the future I'll still enjoy talking about it with people even when those people are secretly happy that nothing is going to change about it, even while I am sitting there with my legs crossed and just desperately wishing that it would.


"I also think the frequency with which this actually happens gets exaggerated a lot. Usually these unfair situations manifest as long lines for women, which is for all but the longest lines a relatively short delay in relief. Most people don't regularly pee outside in mixed company unless they are desperate in my experience, and women who are that desperate will frequently pee outside. This situation has come up a couple times when it was just me and my girlfriend, where she has said if she had a penis she would stop to pee on the side of the road or use a bottle, but this has happened only a couple times in years of knowing her, and also if we were both desperate at the same time I would try to find us both an appropriate place to pee unless she specifically told me to go now instead of waiting for her. The last thing I've seen is that women will sometimes ignore a modest need to pee to wait for a cleaner toilet, and sometimes can misjudge how long it will take or how bad they will have to go and end up really desperate (this has happened a few times with my girlfriend), but this isn't really the "women aren't allowed to pee while men are" scenario you are describing."


I agree with this as well. Like a lot of people say that I bring up these things often and everything like that, but they really are relatively infrequent experiences, with the exception of the unusual circumstances I was in in the last year. Sure I have lots of desperation experiences and experiences of waiting in line, but that's over the course of an entire lifetime, and over the course of an entire lifetime, particularly if you are a person who keeps detailed journals and has a good memory in general, they're going to build up. Even if you only have one or two of these experiences that are memorable every year by the time you are 38 years old (as I am) that's at least a couple of dozen experiences to share with the world.


So yeah it's definitely not an everyday thing except for that brief stretch of time where I was at an outdoor situation regularly away from a bathroom, but those are rare and extraordinary circumstances, and ironically I probably experience more desperation in the last year or two than I did in my entire life combined, but again that's an unusual and rare circumstance. On the average day I am at home all day right near a toilet, and even when I go out it's usually to places that aren't crowded and where there are no lines whatsoever. It just seems like it's more frequent because you don't mention when there isn't a line, it's the rare experiences that stand out in those are the ones that you are going to talk about and mention. I mean since my job has stopped I basically have back to having virtually no sightings or new experiences to share for months on end, and that is typically the common situation. In fact given how infrequently I leave the house these days I probably see and experience a lot less desperation than the average person does, I just talk about the few instances that I have experienced a great deal more than the average person does, and in a community like that this is what everybody's talking about, so this community is not a random sampling, it's actually going to seem like there's a lot more because this is the only thing that people talk about in places like this mostly!


But you are also right it's not a situation of women aren't allowed to pee while men are if the women willingly just avoids a toilet when one is available. When a woman actively avoids a toilet willingly that is not necessarily an unfair situation, that's a personal choice and there is nobody to blame for that except for themselves.


@Unbeknownst


"Idk, but at least as far as I have seen, (And keep in mind here that I am extremely biased towards 'well written' in a literary sense rather than story sense desperation stories since that's what I'm into / certain writing styles or too many obvious errors just pull me out of the story.) most of the stories that feature the trope don't feature it for the sake of featuring the trope.
The trope exists for a reason. It is a reflection of the general reality.  On the average most biologically (equipped... not necessarily genetically) males have a lower standard for when they are willing to pee in a more generally public setting. Thus, it's not actually a case of can/can't, but of will/won't."


Exactly, things that are tropes or clichés or things of that nature exist and come up a lot for the simple reason that they are an accurate reflection of reality. The reason why we don't see lots of stories about men not being able to pee while women are is that that situation in reality very rarely if ever happens. The opposite however is a common reality, again maybe not an everyday situation, but in a situation where bathrooms are limited or unavailable it is a true fact that men just have more options. Again there are plenty of women who will pee outside or can be outside, but I think that I speak for the majority, and by the majority I mean the majority in general not the majority of fetishists who are not a random sample of society, of women in that most women will not just pop a squat outside and expose themselves to others like that to relieve themselves. In general the norm is for if there is no toilet available or if the lines for the ladies room are excessive that women will just continue holding it. That's just the way society is, it's the way society is built, not fair necessarily, but it is the way things are and that the stories are just reflecting that actual reality.


"I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions. There are most definitely stories built around the "men can pee, but woman can't" trope, but by and large most of the stories that have the trope in them is more a reflection of the attitudes of the individual characters in them.
For the most part the trope is, and never has been, about the sex or gender of the individuals. Or rather it's not a trope that is about creating that scenario, but rather a trope in that that scenario happens to fit into the story."


I definitely do build a large number of my stories and even my longer works and novellas around that trope, but you are right it reflects the attitudes of the characters, and most of my main characters are based on what I would do in that situation, and I am not going to go to the bathroom outdoors simply because I cannot squat effectively without exposing myself and peeing all over myself. There are some people who feel that I shouldn't really complain about my situation seeing as I could have gone to the bathroom if I would just be willing to pop a squat, but I am not, and most of my characters in my fictional stories are reflected of my actual reality and experiences.


"Correlation is not causation. Stories that feature the "men can pee, but woman can't" trope aren't necessarily doing so to create the in story situation, but rather given the in story situation that is how the characters react which if done right IS reflective of the average reality and, given the particular story setting, might be even more appropriate to the story.
Essentially, I hate it when people try to make it about sex when it's actually just "this is a trend that exists in reality that also exists in this story since the setting in this story is similar to reality"."


Exactly, and even as a person who outside of this fetish writes lots of science fiction and horror and fantasy scenarios, even in those scenarios you try to make the story realistic and reflective of reality aside from the outrageous elements in the story. The fact is these tropes come along not necessarily because the entire story was written around them, but it's just the type of thing that would happen in reality. Realistically speaking in a situation where there are no toilets available the average woman is not going to pop a squat and expose herself, the reality of the matter is that in situations like this the women will most likely hold it.


In that regard I consider even my fictional stories that use this trope to be true to reality, and the people who have like my stories have said that one of the things that they like the most about them is that they feel it reflects their reality and experiences. And again everybody has different experiences, and I think that in general people like stories and writing that speaks to their experience in some way. So the people who rarely ever experienced this kind of trope in reality might find it more contrived seeming in a story, where as people who have experienced it themselves regularly will read a story like that and be going, yes yes this is reflective of my experiences, this person gets it, I can totally relate to this.


But again everybody has different tastes, and I do feel that our taste in particular stories and what we like does reflect our personal experiences to a very large degree. Even people who like literature of the fantastic and escapist reality are still looking for experiences that they can somehow relate to even within those confines of an unrealistic situation. As one author said if you make everything else about the story realistic people will end up accepting the fantastical elements because everything else makes sense to reality and lived experience.


@LifeIsStrange
"There's only so many tropes though, so eventually you're bound to run out of new ones.  My motto for omo stories is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and for me these tried and true tropes work well enough that I don't mind if they've been done quite a bit and I don't need stories to re-invent the wheel to keep my attention."


Yes, exactly, this 1 million times over. Let's face it when it comes to desperation stories there are only so many scenarios in tropes in which you can find a person in a situation where they are going to be desperate. So yes these have been done quite a bit, and really not just desperation stories, but almost every story has been done before, the key is finding a unique way to present the story and new and interesting ways. Like I have said numerous times you would think that there are only so many stories that you can think of involving a woman not getting to pee, and yet I never run out of new ideas and don't think I ever will, because even within that confines of a simple premise there are so many ways to execute it. So yeah even if I do reuse the same trope of men getting to pee and women not getting to pee, there are so many different scenarios in situations that you can apply that to that your nest never going to run out of new ideas. Some will be similar, but there is always room for new things even within the confines of a tried and true thing that has been done seemingly to death.


Tl; DR I don't blame you I wrote a whole damn lot LOL. As you can see this is a topic very true to my heart.

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Guest OddlyHandsome

Wow! Was this topic started in response to my post about “LEAST Favorite Omo Tropes”? If it was, I’m incredibly happy my post has given birth to another incredibly popular, insightful conversation.

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57 minutes ago, OddlyHandsome said:

Wow! Was this topic started in response to my post about “LEAST Favorite Omo Tropes”? If it was, I’m incredibly happy my post has given birth to another incredibly popular, insightful conversation.

Not really; I just have been curious about this topic for a long time. But I guess in a way it was inspired by your post! 

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Personally I find "one or more people pee, but one or more other people cannot" to be quite hot (in fiction). Societal norms regarding gender roles is a fairly common way to set up such a scenario but it's not the part I find hot specifically.

There are other devices you can use to set up the same thing, such as shyness or conflicting views and attitudes such as beliefs about what's "proper". I'd find a scenario set up using any of these to be quite titillating.

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Honestly, I don't have too many problems with the trope itself. It's a.... bit sus to get off to misogyny like that, but from what i recall some stories play it for laughs or even play it like literally everyone is in on the kink. I think the bigger issue is just that whenever a story like that comes up, I can't help but imagine how this effects regular society. I think I read one story to this effect where, because of the law that got passed that banned women from peeing outside their homes, women were essentially locked into their homes and a bunch of important women who essentially ran society were forced to quit, and all the work that feminists had been doing got undone in the span of a single night. That's the kind of thing that bothers me.

Admittedly, there is one fic I read recently that does this pretty well that I'm gonna link in after this paragraph. Instead of forcing women to hold, it forces nonbinary people to hold, and focuses on a resistance group against the evil piss fascist empire. It's played for laughs, which earns it points, but it's also just cute in a way I'm not sure how to describe.

 

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@desperationenj

"it's probably because the trope has become a cliche and it's not as socially unacceptable that women can't pee anymore. I legit saw a woman squat to pee before. Times have changed but people still think it hasn't."

It could be a generational thing where younger generations are more open and accepting and less judgmental about this, but I really don't think I've seen this, I think society at large you really don't see women just dropping their draws and popping a squat anywhere, at least I haven't, I still think it would be seen as socially unacceptable in most places, but again it's something that probably varies a lot from culture to culture and generation to generation.


But in the United States I don't think it's really seen as culturally accepted, I still think that a lot of people see it as trashy to just piss anywhere, especially for women. It's not something you really see or at least I haven't seen much of it or any of it really in my entire life.


But again it could be a matter of where you live and where you grow up, I know that in my family personally my parents would have had a heart attack if I ever just dropped my draws and started squatting, so it definitely wasn't approved of in my family.

@DerivativeWings

"Personally I find "one or more people pee, but one or more other people cannot" to be quite hot (in fiction). Societal norms regarding gender roles is a fairly common way to set up such a scenario but it's not the part I find hot specifically.

There are other devices you can use to set up the same thing, such as shyness or conflicting views and attitudes such as beliefs about what's "proper". I'd find a scenario set up using any of these to be quite titillating."

I think that a lot of it does have to do with societal attitudes where once again I think that the societal attitude is that women are supposed to hold it. It's not just in those situations, as sometimes people are shy about peeing or they are repressed about going or on a personal level find it offputting which can result in one person not going to the bathroom when others are, but I still think that the gender roles still is the one that makes this scenario happen most often realistically speaking. It's by no means the only one, but I still think it's the most common one.

@secretomoact

"Are people who are only into seeing women (or men) desperate more likely to enjoy these gender-based scenarios, I wonder. "

As a lesbian who is only into female desperation I think there is some truth to that, as I have no interest in male desperation, however I still think that it's mostly because it reflects reality. There are numerous situations where women will not have the convenience of peeing as easily as men, but I can't think of ever experiencing or witnessing a scenario where it was the opposite, where the men were unable to go to the bathroom and the women were able to go. I'm not saying it doesn't happen ever, but I have not experienced it, and I definitely don't think it's the norm or very common at all, certainly nowhere near as common as women holding it while the men are going.

@Lapis Lazuli

"Honestly, I don't have too many problems with the trope itself. It's a.... bit sus to get off to misogyny like that, but from what i recall some stories play it for laughs or even play it like literally everyone is in on the kink. I think the bigger issue is just that whenever a story like that comes up, I can't help but imagine how this effects regular society. I think I read one story to this effect where, because of the law that got passed that banned women from peeing outside their homes, women were essentially locked into their homes and a bunch of important women who essentially ran society were forced to quit, and all the work that feminists had been doing got undone in the span of a single night. That's the kind of thing that bothers me."

I actually think a lot about how it affects regular society in general, and some have said that I am the only person they know who can get into a feminist rant about something in the middle of a story about women not going to the bathroom. I think that that is what provides the conflict, the fact that there is a conflict going on. Yes it's kind of misogynistic that the women can't go to the bathroom, but that's the point, that's why they are having that conflict in the first place, that's the central conflict driving the situation and the story, it's women fighting against the misogynistic and sexist situation that they find themselves in that provides the drama. If there is nothing to be opposed to then there isn't really all that much conflict in any type of story, whether an omorashi story or otherwise.

 

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Personally, I wouldn't necessarily say that I hate it. It's just the fact that it doesn't take INDIVIDUALITY into consideration most of the time.

And since some people mentioned here how this can have a negative effect on women, I would like to mention how this can also have a negative effect on men.

For example, at best most people in society don't seem to be very familiar with the fact that men can be vulnerable or at worst they just downplay it. And even when they are familiar with it, they believe that you as a man can just get rid of that vulnerability state. And this might apply to this trope too as in "if you have to pee just whip it out it, it would be better". And this applies to any other societal issues that men face like the idea that "men can't be raped, especially by women".

I would also like to point out that even though people may have more bias towards women peeing outside than they do towards men, it doesn't mean that it's LEGALLY acceptable. So a man can still get fined if he gets caught peeing outside since there are places where peeing in public is forbidden. Just because I have a penis and anatomically/physically speaking I can "whip it out" easily, doesn't make it legally OK. And for me, the juice is not worth the squeeze so I'd rather hold it or just pee myself (preferably alone).

And also the trope seems to be reductive/limited or lacks nuance. It only takes one specific situation or two into account. What about situations in which no one gets to pee, including (cis) men? Like being denied a toilet break by someone else or being inside a room/building?

Edited by RoTracksuitWet (see edit history)
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I think what bothers me most about this trope isn't the trope itself, it's that people look at a story and go "oh, trope!" and then proceed to focus on that rather than... the story.

13 hours ago, RoTracksuitWet said:

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily say that I hate it. It's just the fact that it doesn't take INDIVIDUALITY into consideration most of the time.

And since some people mentioned here how this can have a negative effect on women, I would like to mention how this can also have a negative effect on men.

For example, at best most people in society don't seem to be very familiar with the fact that men can be vulnerable or at worst they just downplay it. And even when they are familiar with it, they believe that you as a man can just get rid of that vulnerability state. And this might apply to this trope too as in "if you have to pee just whip it out it, it would be better". And this applies to any other societal issues that men face like the idea that "men can't be raped, especially by women".

I would also like to point out that even though people may have more bias towards women peeing outside than they do towards men, it doesn't mean that it's LEGALLY acceptable. So a man can still get fined if he gets caught peeing outside since there are places where peeing in public is forbidden. Just because I have a penis and anatomically/physically speaking I can "whip it out" easily, doesn't make it legally OK. And for me, the juice is not worth the squeeze so I'd rather hold it or just pee myself (preferably alone).

And also the trope seems to be reductive/limited or lacks nuance. It only takes one specific situation or two into account. What about situations in which no one gets to pee, including (cis) men? Like being denied a toilet break by someone else or being inside a room/building?

Even including recent / trending stories, tending to only read a particular kind of story, or any other systematic biasing factor, while there are plenty of stories that follow this trope there are just as many, if not far more, that don't follow this trope.

"What about situations in which no one gets to pee, including (cis) men? Like being denied a toilet break by someone else or being inside a room/building?"

It is my opinion (not a fact since I have not verified) based on many of the responses in this thread that many of the stories in the fiction section are being grouped into this trope that don't actually fit. Far more stories that people seem to think fit into this are ACTUALLY "[...] situations in which no one gets to pee, including (cis) men? Like being denied a toilet break by someone else or being inside a room/building?" It's just that the character that the story focuses on, or that the author chose to write about, is female while the scenario would apply regardless of sex.

A lot of times it's because the character thinks or perceives that it would be okay to do if they were the other sex without actually taking account that even if it were easier to do, they might still feel too awkward to actually do so. That's not a trope created, perpetuated, or featured by the story, that's the character's views on their current situation which may or may not be accurate and inherently are going to ignore individual nuance because they aren't thinking about other individuals in their situation, they're thinking about themselves in the situation they are going through.

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@Unbeknownst

"It's just that the character that the story focuses on, or that the author chose to write about, is female while the scenario would apply regardless of sex.

A lot of times it's because the character thinks or perceives that it would be okay to do if they were the other sex without actually taking account that even if it were easier to do, they might still feel too awkward to actually do so. That's not a trope created, perpetuated, or featured by the story, that's the character's views on their current situation which may or may not be accurate and inherently are going to ignore individual nuance because they aren't thinking about other individuals in their situation, they're thinking about themselves in the situation they are going through."

Exactly, going along with writing what you know about. I base all of my characters off of myself and what I would do in that situation, although there are plenty of people who would do otherwise, it really does come down to the individual character.

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