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Do you think that ANTIFA is a terrorist organisation?


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Well, I'm going to disagree about Antifa being a terrorist organization.  My reasoning? They don't actually seem to be an organization, they seem to barely exist, many of the acts attributed to them s

Of course not how can being anti fascist be terrorist lol. Were people fighting for the allies in WW2 terrorists? I miss when everyone reasonable was anti fascist! We have actual fascists trying

Antifa is not even a official organization as it just means a shared ideology of being against fascism, which everybody should be against. Whenever people bring up the idea of anti-fascism being terro

I really wasn't going to respond to this thread again, and originally I wasn't going to start replying to anything here in the first place, as these threads never end well, but I think that really needs to be said that if you're defending Nazis you can be pretty sure that you're on the losing side of history. The way I see it when you try to exterminate everybody not like yourself, kill tens of millions of people you have basically lost any right to continue to exist in any form after that. In Germany if you want around dressed in a Nazi uniform preaching hate and waving swastika flags you would be arrested, and that is the way it should be.


And the idea that there is a far left in America on any large scale is ridiculous, America is far to the right of any other Western democracy. The marchers in Charlottesville with their Tiki torches shouting Jews will not replace us were safer than peaceful black protesters from BlackLivesMatter, and under Trump the FBI actually worked with white supremacists to try and infiltrate BlackLivesMatter.


White supremacy and Nazi-ism aren't a fringe minority in America, the mainstream right is now the very far right and very distinctly fascist and base their entire worldview on conspiracy theory, paranoia and hate completely divorced from reality. In fact I would go so far as to say white supremacy is the dominant ideology in America today, at least in the more conservative regions, and I don't think that this country is ever going to overcome the stain of slavery and genocide on which this country was founded.


Now I'm really thinking that I'm just not going to check this thread after this, because when it starts to be a thread where people are defending Nazis I just really don't want to see any further responses, and I feel this thread will likely end up locked soon anyway. I come to this board to get away from the depressing political situation, and if I continue reading this thread I certainly won't be able to continue doing that.

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1 hour ago, Finishuser4444 said:

Did you know that socialists also killed tens of millions of people in the USSR? And i do not agree that you should be arrested for expressing your opinions. 

Oho, my favorite type of comment, how can I not reply to that ^^! Sourceless dramatic numbers aside, Stalin was no saint, but he, along with the allies  who helped him to hold the line, saved the world from a much greater evil. He basically played an RTS and won, playing his cards (mostly) right.

Now, while I do agree with the freedom of speech as much as the other guy, nazism is not that. It's branding people as subhumans based on their birth, not their actions. Look at how far we've got today - it doen't matter where you come from, it doesn't matter if you're straight, or gay, or haven't decided what you want yourself to be yet, you're still you and you have every right to decide what you want yourself to be. Nazism denies you that right. Is supporting that point of view really acceptable? If Hitler is a boogeyman from the past, is it okay to spread ISIS propaganda? I think not.

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2 hours ago, Finishuser4444 said:

So you are denying that socialists in the soviet union were responsible for millions of innocent civilians killed?
And yes i think Nazism is freedom of speech, the only things i would exclude from freedom of speech is : Threats and Fruad.

I'd phrase this a little differently if I were you.  I do agree that they have the right to speak, like everyone else, and trying to silence them probably has the opposite of the intended effect (accusing people of being Nazis when they clearly aren't doesn't help their case either).  Of course, they can be acted against if they threaten, slander, or defraud somebody.  The thing some people (i.e. Antifa) don't get is that you can't punish somebody until after they've committed a crime.

To bring this back on the original topic, Antifa sees the mere existence of these people (and anybody else that disagrees with their cause) as a crime, and act accordingly, once again often accomplishing the exact opposite of what they claim to want.  There are times when violence is justified, but so far, in none of the cases where Antifa has attacked people or property has that been the case.

Edited by D0nt45k (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, DesperateJill said:

I really wasn't going to respond to this thread again, and originally I wasn't going to start replying to anything here in the first place, as these threads never end well, but I think that really needs to be said that if you're defending Nazis you can be pretty sure that you're on the losing side of history. The way I see it when you try to exterminate everybody not like yourself, kill tens of millions of people you have basically lost any right to continue to exist in any form after that. In Germany if you want around dressed in a Nazi uniform preaching hate and waving swastika flags you would be arrested, and that is the way it should be.


And the idea that there is a far left in America on any large scale is ridiculous, America is far to the right of any other Western democracy. The marchers in Charlottesville with their Tiki torches shouting Jews will not replace us were safer than peaceful black protesters from BlackLivesMatter, and under Trump the FBI actually worked with white supremacists to try and infiltrate BlackLivesMatter.


White supremacy and Nazi-ism aren't a fringe minority in America, the mainstream right is now the very far right and very distinctly fascist and base their entire worldview on conspiracy theory, paranoia and hate completely divorced from reality. In fact I would go so far as to say white supremacy is the dominant ideology in America today, at least in the more conservative regions, and I don't think that this country is ever going to overcome the stain of slavery and genocide on which this country was founded.


Now I'm really thinking that I'm just not going to check this thread after this, because when it starts to be a thread where people are defending Nazis I just really don't want to see any further responses, and I feel this thread will likely end up locked soon anyway. I come to this board to get away from the depressing political situation, and if I continue reading this thread I certainly won't be able to continue doing that.

You sound pretty worried about the state of the government and the american people, that being the case, where do you stand on gun control?

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11 hours ago, D0nt45k said:

You're deluded.  You know damned well that the ones flying nazi flags are a fringe minority (if they're even legit - it's a known fact that agents provocateur have been used by both sides to harm their opposition optically over the years), and are always disavowed whenever they appear in public, but that doesn't stop you from associaing them with unrelated groups just because it's convenient for you to label all of your opposition as such.  I used to be a far leftist, I know how people like you think, and I left the Left behind eight years ago precisely because of people like you.

All I said is that it's not a good look when you're advocating attacking people just for speaking.  If you're really that sure that you're right, and they're wrong, let them talk and make asses of themselves when they actually have to answer questions about their platform  (or, as I said, heckle them, let them lose their temper and lash out, and then they appear to be the aggressors and you can claim self-defense).  Violently silencing them and centrists when none of your opposition has made any indication towards violent intent doesn't help your cause, quite the opposite in fact.  All you're doing is pissing people off and turning them against you, and when their patience finally runs out...I'd find a place to hide if I were you.

You're right, this thread does need to be locked, and you need to do some soul searching before you make a decision irl you might seriously regret.

YOU'RE deluded, because you keep thinking for some stupid ass reason that I'm associating Nazis with anything other than Nazis. I didn't call your mother a Nazi. I didn't call your favored political party a Nazi. I called people flying Swastikas Nazis. You need to seriously consider why you are convinced this means I'm talking about other, non-Nazi groups.

Also I'm not advocating for violence against people for just speaking, I'm advocating that violence against groups who are advocating for genocide is something I'm fine with, especially in countries where there aren't laws banning Nazi symbols or Holocause denial such as Canada or the USA. You can think that violence is going too far, and that's fine, that's a reasonable opinion that can be discussed civilly. To be honest I'd rather they be thrown in jail now that I've spent some time thinking on it. But let's be real fucking clear here: Someone waving a Nazi flag or "speaking" about Nazi values IS violent intent. It is saying "I think mass murdering jews and homosexuals and anyone else I deem undesirable is a good thing." I do think that Nazis should not exist. "Nazis are bad" should not be a controversial take, and the fact that you seem to be up in arms about said take speaks to your character.


Also saying "it's a known fact that agent provocateurs exist" is actual conspiracy theory bullshit, and serves as another good indicator that you are not arguing in good faith. The only group for which that nonsense is "well known fact" is the group of people who get their "facts" from facebook groups, breitbart, and 4chan.

  

3 hours ago, Finishuser4444 said:

And yes i think Nazism is freedom of speech, the only things i would exclude from freedom of speech is : Threats and Fruad.

When speaking about USA Law, then you are correct. All Hate Speech is legally protected free speech there according to a 2017 supreme court ruling, which means the Government is not allowed to make laws to arrest Nazis, unfortunately. This does not speak to whether that is "right" or not, nor does it protect Nazis from legal consequences from the private sector, such as being made an outcast or getting fired from their jobs. And no, the first amendment does not protect them from being fired, and federal anti-discrimination laws do not include protections for political affiliation.

And yes, I'm aware that punching a Nazi is against the law. I would be very interested to see if a Jury would successfully convict someone for that. Reminds me of the time a Nazi got punched on camera in downtown Seattle in 2017, and no arrest was made. When asked, the Seattle police said that no one reported a crime, so no investigation.

Edited by tenck5k (see edit history)
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"Did you know that socialists also killed tens of millions of people in the USSR?"

Did you know that "christians" killed people in the crusades?

Did you know that the british empire, a capitalist monarchy killed millions of people during its heydey, across africa, ireland, india etc.

do you know that captialist countries regularly sell bombs to terrorists (e.g Saudis)

Do you know that capitalists started the war in Iraq?

Do you know what "whataboutery" is and why it's stupid?

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3 hours ago, kittyearsamy said:

"Did you know that socialists also killed tens of millions of people in the USSR?"

Did you know that "christians" killed people in the crusades?

Did you know that the british empire, a capitalist monarchy killed millions of people during its heydey, across africa, ireland, india etc.

do you know that captialist countries regularly sell bombs to terrorists (e.g Saudis)

Do you know that capitalists started the war in Iraq?

Do you know what "whataboutery" is and why it's stupid?

Saudiarabian military might be warcriminals, but they are not Terrorists.

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Everyone please stay calm. Calling each other names on the internet over political alignments is older than, well, me. We don't need to do that anymore, you have all the time and text space in the world to articulate actual points. If you're going to just become a bunch of baboons and point fingers and yell buzzwords I'mma just drop this whole thread in the trash.

 

Speaking of which, good god everyone, stop reporting people for disagreeing with you. On both sides. Not what the button's for until someone starts dropping the big nono's from being mad on the internet. Thanks.

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It's absolutely insane how either side of the political divide is convinced that their truth is plain as day. But it should not be controversial to say everyone should be anti-fascist. And anyone on the right who thinks the left are the real fascists, well, call some actors authoritarian if you must, but fascism is right wing by definition. And in the event that anyone wants to be cute by calling leftists fascists, I like to direct them to Eco's 14 tenets of fascism. No one yet has had the balls to contend on those points that the modern American right is less fascist than the left. And on the original question, no I don't believe by-and-large there is a terrorist threat from a group called Antifa. Someone who uses violence or the threat of violence to enact political change is a terrorist, and they should be prosecuted regardless of their affiliation. Equal justice under law.

Whew, I thought I'd get my fill of political snipes on Reddit. But now people on here know I like wet pants and sympathize with progressives.

Edited by AliasnameTO (see edit history)
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On 2/13/2022 at 3:31 PM, tenck5k said:

YOU'RE deluded, because you keep thinking for some stupid ass reason that I'm associating Nazis with anything other than Nazis. I didn't call your mother a Nazi. I didn't call your favored political party a Nazi. I called people flying Swastikas Nazis. You need to seriously consider why you are convinced this means I'm talking about other, non-Nazi groups.

Also I'm not advocating for violence against people for just speaking, I'm advocating that violence against groups who are advocating for genocide is something I'm fine with, especially in countries where there aren't laws banning Nazi symbols or Holocause denial such as Canada or the USA. You can think that violence is going too far, and that's fine, that's a reasonable opinion that can be discussed civilly. To be honest I'd rather they be thrown in jail now that I've spent some time thinking on it. But let's be real fucking clear here: Someone waving a Nazi flag or "speaking" about Nazi values IS violent intent. It is saying "I think mass murdering jews and homosexuals and anyone else I deem undesirable is a good thing." I do think that Nazis should not exist. "Nazis are bad" should not be a controversial take, and the fact that you seem to be up in arms about said take speaks to your character.


Also saying "it's a known fact that agent provocateurs exist" is actual conspiracy theory bullshit, and serves as another good indicator that you are not arguing in good faith. The only group for which that nonsense is "well known fact" is the group of people who get their "facts" from facebook groups, breitbart, and 4chan.

  

When speaking about USA Law, then you are correct. All Hate Speech is legally protected free speech there according to a 2017 supreme court ruling, which means the Government is not allowed to make laws to arrest Nazis, unfortunately. This does not speak to whether that is "right" or not, nor does it protect Nazis from legal consequences from the private sector, such as being made an outcast or getting fired from their jobs. And no, the first amendment does not protect them from being fired, and federal anti-discrimination laws do not include protections for political affiliation.

And yes, I'm aware that punching a Nazi is against the law. I would be very interested to see if a Jury would successfully convict someone for that. Reminds me of the time a Nazi got punched on camera in downtown Seattle in 2017, and no arrest was made. When asked, the Seattle police said that no one reported a crime, so no investigation.

Of course nazis are bad, and it would be better if their view were to go away entirely, but it is a slippery slope to advocate for the banning of speech or violence against those who speak. Sure it may be a good idea when your group/party or whatever is in power, but what would happen if the other group were to take over? The rules that had seemed so good earlier are turned against you.

Also regarding your punching a nazi situation, if you say that it is ok to just punch a nazi who is standing on the street peacefully then it sets a precedent for nazis to be able to punch antifa members who are also standing on the street peacefully, because, at the end of the day you are just punching someone who you disagree with. I'm sure the nazi Mustache Man, delusional as he was (and who I most definitely disagree with), would've viewed your view just as dangerously as you do his. If all people are made equal, what single person or even group of people can decide what is right or wrong? And don't say majority should decide, after all we are on a site marketed towards people who are most definitely not the majority, and I don't think that partaking in such activities that are on here should be viewed as bad or whatever the majority of people view this as.

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Is ANTIFA a terrorist organization? 

Nope! As has been said before, it's a very unorganized group of people, not a collective entity.

But yes, groups like the Proud Boys, Oathkeepers, 3%ers, the KKK (who are officially labeled as a terrorist hate group btw) are all terrorists.

Why?

Well, there are numerous accounts of people who are apart of those groups committing ghastly crimes (like shooting up abortion clinics, schools, mosques, synagogues, churches, etc.) Plus they were directly involved in attempting to overthrow the US government, which is already very right-leaning. Most terrorism is right-wing, sorry.

"Socialists like to kill people"

Also false, dictators like to kill people. Any self-respecting lefty will tell you flat-out that Stalin and Mao were vile monsters, on par with mustache man. (In my opinion, the PRC and the Soviet Union, aren't Marxist, but an aberration of Marx's true vision. Yugoslavia comes the closest imo.)

Whereas every fascist has committed mass death and atrocities (even at peacetime, as the way of life tends to change during wartime), a lot of socialists have not. 

Thomas Sankara of Burkina Faso and Chile's Salvador Allende were largely death free until their CIA-backed overthrowals. Josip Tito and Fidel Castro, who are often vilified by the Right, have low death counts in comparison to the lightest of fascists.

"The Nazis were Socialists! Socialism is in the name!"

Again, no. The word "Democratic" is in the name of the "Democratic People's Republic of [North] Korea", and they certainly aren't democratic. It's a buzzword, meant to drum up support. 

Final Words

Nazis are repugnant, vile, abscesses of our society, and they must be ripped out root and stem. You support free speech all you want, but the moment that someone starts to advocate for the erasure of another group of people, based on something they largely cannot control, be that because they're a different colour, a woman, LGBTQ+, a different faith or lack thereof, or what have you, then that person has rendered their "Freedom of speech" to be null. You have freedom to speak, but you do not have freedom to threaten death upon millions. Nazism can be cured, and fascism can be wiped out, but you can't wipe out that which those groups wish to destroy.

The world's growing acceptance of the far-right is an abhorrent indicator of where our society is heading, all in some asinine nature to say "I know they wish me dead, but they have a right to speak".

What I'm getting at is simple; Fuck Nazis, fuck fascists

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I kept thinking Antifa was short for anti-facemask and being utterly confused when Donald Trump called them terrorists lol

Whenever there's a protest where people go "white lives matters too", the counter-protesters that go "you're misinterpreting the message" may self-identify as Antifa. It's the same way someone attending a pride parade may self-identify as LGBT. But it looks like people have swayed from wondering what Antifa is to just complain about fascism and express concern about restricting people for opposing beliefs. Nobody here is defending fascism so let's stop worrying about it and stop calling people fascists.

You may want to ban harmless underaged content to stop it from escalating into harmful underaged content. That's the same logic behind stopping people from waving Nazi flags before they start shouting racial slurs. There's a crucial detail to observe, though: pedophiles sexually prefer children but don't always harass them, and Neo-Nazis by definition will always harass racial and ethnic minorities unless they're afraid of getting caught. Under this context, it's no longer about restricting opposing views: it's preventing a problem from occurring.

Also beating people up is more of an exasperated joke than anything. They're tired that racial inequality is still a thing in the modern age. Feels like all you can do is knock the racism out of their bones. It's not about violence against opposing views: it's violence against those who won't listen to anything else. Violence as punishment is debatable but you can't pretend you've never wanted to punch somebody for being stupid.

Given that Antifa is not a terrorist organization, should we start a new thread discussing how to deal with white supremacism and whether violence and oppression are justifiable options? Literally everybody here agrees that Neo-Nazism has to go.

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I'm so tired of politics that I don't even watch the local news anymore!  Anyway, I highly doubt fascists/communists will ever control America.  My opinion is ANTIFA is just a group of anarchists made up of young people and people on the fringes of society that like to fuck shit up and disrupt shit.  They don't have much, if any political base at all.  I stay away from all that shit anyway.  I vote (rarely) who I vote for.  It's really nobody's business.

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1 hour ago, TomatoNLettuce said:

I kept thinking Antifa was short for anti-facemask and being utterly confused when Donald Trump called them terrorists lol

Whenever there's a protest where people go "white lives matters too", the counter-protesters that go "you're misinterpreting the message" may self-identify as Antifa. It's the same way someone attending a pride parade may self-identify as LGBT. But it looks like people have swayed from wondering what Antifa is to just complain about fascism and express concern about restricting people for opposing beliefs. Nobody here is defending fascism so let's stop worrying about it and stop calling people fascists.

You may want to ban harmless underaged content to stop it from escalating into harmful underaged content. That's the same logic behind stopping people from waving Nazi flags before they start shouting racial slurs. There's a crucial detail to observe, though: pedophiles sexually prefer children but don't always harass them, and Neo-Nazis by definition will always harass racial and ethnic minorities unless they're afraid of getting caught. Under this context, it's no longer about restricting opposing views: it's preventing a problem from occurring.

Also beating people up is more of an exasperated joke than anything. They're tired that racial inequality is still a thing in the modern age. Feels like all you can do is knock the racism out of their bones. It's not about violence against opposing views: it's violence against those who won't listen to anything else. Violence as punishment is debatable but you can't pretend you've never wanted to punch somebody for being stupid.

Given that Antifa is not a terrorist organization, should we start a new thread discussing how to deal with white supremacism and whether violence and oppression are justifiable options? Literally everybody here agrees that Neo-Nazism has to go.

I disagree, you should NEVER physically attack anyone, unless they physically attacked you first. But i do agree that it would be good if nazism did go away, but i dont think it should be banned. Because if you ban an ideology, then you are no better than the nazis you claim to oppose. And in a society where people are allowed to form their own opinions, extreme ideologies will never go away, as the red army faction once said, "Revoultion says, I was, I am, I will be".

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