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The difficult question of consent


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I'm cross-posting this from Fetlife, where I also spend a bit of time under this same alias.

So, let's put one obvious point out there first. Non-consent is WRONG. I would not seek to defend it or try to convince anyone otherwise.

However, the problem with a desperation fetish is that it sometimes veers into non-consensual territory. The friend on a walk that has drunk too much water but is terribly pee-shy. The new date who gets caught short on the way back from the pub. These are situations which are a tremendous turn-on, but yet there is still the ongoing reminder that - well - they are just wrong because you do not have the consent of the other party.

It has to be acknowledged that the very best desperation fantasies are those that are unplanned and prolonged beyond reasonable expectation. Again, this plays very much into the grey areas of consent. Consensual pee-play pre-assumes a set of boundaries, some element of planning and a mutually-agreed limit.

So, frequently, I find myself asking: is it in fact the guilt that turns me on? Is it my own paralysis and inability to turn away from a woman having a sneaky pee? Is it the chivalry that means I try to involve myself in arranging a woman's bathroom arrangements? Is it the constant dichotomy between doing the right thing and wanting the wrong thing? Are those the things that turn me on?

Or is it the tightly-crossed legs, the clenched buttocks, the unwillingly tense labia, the (sometimes unexpectedly) additional lubrication, the overt neediness and the delightful range of facial expressions? The release and the sigh of satisfaction?

Gosh, I hope it's the latter. The former is way too complicated for me to deal with. 🙂

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this very difficult topic?

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I did have another thought as well, that desperation can be a somewhat problematic fetish in the sense that you are enjoying somebody else's discomfort, and I just thought to myself that it doesn't seem like that is a bad thing, and yet if you saw someone being beaten up on the streets and took pleasure in that it seemed like it would be wrong, but to a person who doesn't want a full bladder I suppose that would be painful as well, so it's almost like you are sort of taking pleasure in other people's pain, but I still don't feel that the two situations are necessarily equivalent. Also if you stand there watching a someone getting beaten up it makes you a bystander to a crime, where as watching somebody having to go to the bathroom isn't necessarily the same, as nothing is being directly inflicted on them by another party.

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I guess It's up to your moral code how to act. You can't blame yourself for enjoying a desperate person or even getting turned on. It's your nature after all. But I believe there is a blame if you try to interfere. Trying to delay somebody intentionally without consent or watching him/her is a sin. A person relieving in public in plain sight is an exception, I guess. But if I notice a stranger girl peeing outside I would not stop and start observing her, it's kind of creepy to me. 

I have a problem. I can't come without involving omo fetish in sexual life. I mean I get turned on seeing girl naked, having contact with her and all that stuff, but I can't reach the end of it. 

Which leads me to a dilemma : should I tell every single girl I date about my fetish or should I have this kind of situation

Edited by Sbones (see edit history)
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12 minutes ago, DesperateJill said:

I did have another thought as well, that desperation can be a somewhat problematic fetish in the sense that you are enjoying somebody else's discomfort, and I just thought to myself that it doesn't seem like that is a bad thing, and yet if you saw someone being beaten up on the streets and took pleasure in that it seemed like it would be wrong, but to a person who doesn't want a full bladder I suppose that would be painful as well, so it's almost like you are sort of taking pleasure in other people's pain, but I still don't feel that the two situations are necessarily equivalent. Also if you stand there watching a someone getting beaten up it makes you a bystander to a crime, where as watching somebody having to go to the bathroom isn't necessarily the same, as nothing is being directly inflicted on them by another party.

But you can quite easily have consensual discomfort and non-consensual discomfort. If I'm getting off some on someone's non-consensual discomfort, that's wrong. Or at least 'not right'.

The problem is, and remains, that playing out scenarios with someone else who's into the fetish is a lot of fun. BUT, it's not as arousing as catching one of those genuine desperate situations which are so few and far between.

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4 minutes ago, Sbones said:

I guess It's up to your moral code how to act. You can't blame yourself for enjoying a desperate person or even getting turned on. It's your nature after all. But I believe there is a blame if you try to interfere. Trying to delay somebody intentionally without consent or watching him/her is a sin. A person relieving in public in plain sight is an exception, I guess. But if I notice a stranger girl peeing outside I would not stop and start observing her, it's kind of creepy to me. 

 

I'll be honest, if I noticed a stranger woman (sorry, don't go in for 'girl' terminology) peeing outside, or even the preliminary indications that this might happen in the near future, I'd find it virtually impossible NOT to stop and watch. I expect that's where quite a lot of my guilt comes from.

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1 minute ago, BB1BBB said:

I'll be honest, if I noticed a stranger woman (sorry, don't go in for 'girl' terminology) peeing outside, or even the preliminary indications that this might happen in the near future, I'd find it virtually impossible NOT to stop and watch. I expect that's where quite a lot of my guilt comes from.

Then again, don't go hard on yourself. You won't stay watching if a person asks you to leave, will you? 

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1 hour ago, BB1BBB said:

I'm cross-posting this from Fetlife, where I also spend a bit of time under this same alias.

So, let's put one obvious point out there first. Non-consent is WRONG. I would not seek to defend it or try to convince anyone otherwise.

However, the problem with a desperation fetish is that it sometimes veers into non-consensual territory. The friend on a walk that has drunk too much water but is terribly pee-shy. The new date who gets caught short on the way back from the pub. These are situations which are a tremendous turn-on, but yet there is still the ongoing reminder that - well - they are just wrong because you do not have the consent of the other party.

...

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this very difficult topic?

I don't think consent really applies to this, unless you're actively doing something. You know, I'm all for consent, but I'm not into taking it way further than necessary.

If there's a woman with decent curves in an almost see-through shirt going down the street, I don't think you need to obtain a consent to discreetly look at her while walking your way, as long as you're not being creepy or obvious about your staring. Same here with your examples. If your pee shy friend got desperate on a walk or your date has to pee after the pub - well enjoy the show, no need to feel guilty. If you didn't plot this situation for them with a malicious intent and simply observing what happens because you're enjoying it - it has absolutely nothing to do with a "non-consent", it's just a life. Few years ago I had a friend in my car on a long drive who suddenly got desperate to pee because she was thirsty and drank a full bottle of water before leaving, and there was nowhere to stop (we were driving through farming/industrial area, and she was refusing to pop a squat on the road). I took her to the gas station I found with GPS but it was like 20 minutes detour, so I got to enjoy quite a nice show of desperation. Was it non-consent? I don't think so. I didn't make her drink that water, I didn't intentionally chose path away from any civilization, I took her to the nearest gas station I could find, and if she didn't plan her bladder needs well and almost peed her pants in my car - well, that has nothing with what I did, so I don't think I had to obtain a consent to get secretly turned on by the whole thing. It was hot for me, but she doesn't need to know. 

Now, if you'll try to reroute your walking/driving path further away from the toilet to prolong her desperation - that's a different story, you're actively engaging in the situation for your pleasure, and in this case it's wrong unless your have a person's consent. So it all depends for me if I'm an observer or participant.

22 minutes ago, BB1BBB said:

I'll be honest, if I noticed a stranger woman (sorry, don't go in for 'girl' terminology) peeing outside, or even the preliminary indications that this might happen in the near future, I'd find it virtually impossible NOT to stop and watch. I expect that's where quite a lot of my guilt comes from.

Well, that's pretty normal. That's actually exactly what triggered my fetish when I was like 11 yo. That girl (who was about my age) didn't see me, and I quietly watched and then walked away when she was done. If she would notice me, I would leave immediately. But she was peeing in the public space (thin bushes next to the local library), and when I noticed what happened I couldn't help to stop and discreetly watch her through the bushes. I don't feel guilty for that, it just happened as an accident in an open public space where both of us were entitled to be present, and she didn't see me and didn't ask me to leave.

Edited by SpaceWonderer (see edit history)
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I get turned on even from seeing a line to the ladies. That's the way I am. Feeling guilt that you get turned on by a desperate girl without consent of said girl is a road to a mental clinic.

As for everything else, I am an odd case. Secretly hoping my date gets desperate on her own one day simply doesn't cut it for me - unlike omoges, in real life you don't get to see girls' bladder meters and read their thoughts. I want my feeling of complete control over the situation and to know she's doing it to please me, so she won't even look in the direction of the toilets without my say-so.

This basically means I tell about it ASAP. If she's not into this / not willing to do this for me - there's a lot of fish in the pond.

There are several positives to this:

1) I get to find out if she will/won't be doing this before I'm too invested in the relationship (having to hide your fetish from your partner is terrible, though many people willingly go down that road)

2) whatever happens from that point forward is fully consented

3) with how everyone close-ish to me know what I'm into, I tend to get a lot of content here and then, with girls interested to try this, share their experiences and what not

 

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@BB1BBB

"But you can quite easily have consensual discomfort and non-consensual discomfort. If I'm getting off some on someone's non-consensual discomfort, that's wrong. Or at least 'not right'.

The problem is, and remains, that playing out scenarios with someone else who's into the fetish is a lot of fun. BUT, it's not as arousing as catching one of those genuine desperate situations which are so few and far between."

That is true, which is why I felt that my situation of having to hold at work was almost like karma for enjoying situations like this in the past. But the truth is even if I am equally bursting myself seeing another woman not getting to go to the bathroom but it's a smile on my face and makes me feel better about my own situation.


Sometimes I will feel bad like if it's a kid or an old person or something like that, but in general I think that I enjoy it more if I see that the woman is actually not wanting the desperation and aggravated by it and I can't help but find those situations to be the most exciting of all, so I get where you are coming from on that as well.


But having been on the receiving end I can understand how that feels as well because I have been over the last year and a real lot of situations where I have been bursting in a very obvious way around other people who were getting to go to the bathroom, and I think that at least some of them enjoyed seeing me squirm and it was very frustrating.


Again as a person with a fetish I would be a hypocrite if I got mad at them for that, but I can understand how it's a very awkward and frustrating situation to not be able to go to the bathroom and to be on exhibition in public like that and everybody sort of watching you and finding amusement in your suffering.

"I'll be honest, if I noticed a stranger woman (sorry, don't go in for 'girl' terminology) peeing outside, or even the preliminary indications that this might happen in the near future, I'd find it virtually impossible NOT to stop and watch. I expect that's where quite a lot of my guilt comes from."

I have to agree here as well. There are some who would argue that the woman peeing and exposing herself though was indecent exposure and would actually feel that they were the ones wronged by seeing that, I on the other hand if I saw a woman popping a squat and peeing right in front of me I would say, don't feel guilty am enjoying the show! Okay I wouldn't actually say that but I would be thinking it, that's for sure!


But again I don't really feel as guilty about that because the way I see it if you are doing something in public, if you are exposing yourself or exhibiting yourself you can't really blame people for looking. I can understand if you are trying to actively hide yourself and somebody is trying to sneak a peek that that's a little bit more wrong. And if I saw a woman peeing and she screamed don't look at me I would probably turn away because I wouldn't want to be creepy, or potentially out myself as a pee perv lesbian! That would be like the female equivalent of a guy looking at another guy at the urinal and giving the other guy a thumbs up!


However I can honestly say this situation has never come up, the closest I have ever seen is occasionally men peeing on the side of the road and I really don't have any interest in that, and even that is something that is incredibly rare but I have only witnessed a few times in my life, and the men were mostly pretty discreet and you couldn't really see anything, but it was obvious what they were doing regardless.

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1 minute ago, Pisikak said:

I get turned on even from seeing a line to the ladies. That's the way I am. Feeling guilt that you get turned on by a desperate girl without consent of said girl is a road to a mental clinic.

As for everything else, I am an odd case. Secretly hoping my date gets desperate on her own one day simply doesn't cut it for me - unlike omoges, in real life you don't get to see girls' bladder meters and read their thoughts. I want my feeling of complete control over the situation and to know she's doing it to please me, so she won't even look in the direction of the toilets without my say-so.

This basically means I tell about it ASAP. If she's not into this / not willing to do this for me - there's a lot of fish in the pond.

There are several positives to this:

1) I get to find out if she will/won't be doing this before I'm too invested in the relationship (having to hide your fetish from your partner is terrible, though many people willingly go down that road)

2) whatever happens from that point forward is fully consented

3) with how everyone close-ish to me know what I'm into, I tend to get a lot of content here and then, with girls interested to try this, share their experiences and what not

 

Yes, that's true. I'm not particularly backwards about coming forwards because it does pay off from time to time.

In some ways, this makes it even harder to watch a secret peeing, because there's a bit of my hindbrain that wants to jump out of the bushes and tell them how much I'm enjoying it. 😄

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@Pisikak

"I get turned on even from seeing a line to the ladies. That's the way I am. Feeling guilt that you get turned on by a desperate girl without consent of said girl is a road to a mental clinic."

Personally that's my favorite situation! It's because even if there is nobody who is visibly desperate you have to figure in a line of women that one, they are all in line so they all have to pee, so you know all of those women have to go to the bathroom, and that at least a few of them are probably pretty desperate or at least the urge is pretty urgent.

There is nothing more exciting than for me to be standing in line with lots of other desperate women and everything like that, and it makes me feel kind of perverted that I am enjoying it so much, but then I am supposed to be there and usually when I see something like that I have to go myself, so you can't say it's anything weird, although the other girls in line probably aren't enjoying it the way I am, in fact most of them are probably pretty annoyed by it, which just makes it even more exciting for me! I guess I really am sort of a sick twisted individual in that regard…

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1 hour ago, DesperateJill said:

I feel that we can't help but be turned on by situations like that because it's just wired into us, but the way I see it as long as you are not inflicting that situation on the person or causing that situation I don't feel it is necessarily wrong to take pleasure in seeing such a thing, I mean if they are doing that in public and everything like that. The way I see it if you are doing something in public in a way like that you can't blame people for watching is the way I see it.

I think I can agree with Jill, but I have quite different perspective cause I'm somewhere on the asexual spectrum.

First of all I think I never experienced being turned on or aroused by real life desperation or accident in public (doesn't matter if it's me or someone else). And to be honest i feel super weird about it cause it's like a switch in my brain that makes me completely ace when I'm in public. I think that helps me to look at this situation a little bit more objective (cause of course I know about omorashi, and I'm part of the community, but that specific topic is not something emotional to me since I don't experience that). So as I wrote in the beginning I agree with Jill, if you're not the reason why someone is desperate in the public, then it's not your fault, and you shouldn't feel guilt because you felt aroused because of that.

54 minutes ago, SpaceWonderer said:

If there's a woman with decent curves in an almost see-through shirt going down the street, I don't think you need to obtain a consent to discreetly look at her while walking your way, as long as you're not being creepy or obvious about your staring. Same here with your examples.

I literally wanted to write the same thing SpaceWonderer XD

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It is normal to encounter arousing situations in day-to-day life.  We can't help what turns us on, so there is no use in feeling shame or guilt over something we can't control.  What we do have control over is the choices we make and how we choose to act.  Being with a friend who is desperate to pee may be a turn on, but that doesn't give you license to take steps to increase their desperation for your own enjoyment- Once you make that decision, to take a certain action without them consenting, that is where the line is crossed.  But, as long as you aren't altering your actions, you can't help but feel aroused just like your friend can't help needing to pee.  It is just what the situation is, no one has violated anyone's consent.  Once you start making choices and performing actions just to satisfy your kink, without the consent of others involved, that is where a line is being crossed.
 

8 hours ago, Pisikak said:

I doubt she can get into much legal trouble as it's technically just filming people in a public setting.

In the U.S. there are certain spaces where the people are deemed to have a reasonable expectation of privacy.  Of course this includes their own homes, but it also extends to public bathrooms and locker rooms.  There are also certain events and types of businesses that enjoy this expectation of privacy.  In the case of this video you shared, it seems to be inside of a public bathroom which clearly falls under an expectation of privacy.  In this case, the person filming could indeed get in serious legal trouble.

Additionally, wiretap laws affect your ability to legally record audio of someone, even if they are in public, without their consent or awareness of being recorded.  Also, the use of the video has an impact on its legality.  While a video might be OK if it is used in an editorial or news context, that very same video might run afoul of revenge porn laws if its intent is to arouse, titillate, or appeal to the prurient interests as defined by law and specific consent is not granted by everyone appearing in the video.

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2 hours ago, Sbones said:

I guess It's up to your moral code how to act. You can't blame yourself for enjoying a desperate person or even getting turned on. It's your nature after all. But I believe there is a blame if you try to interfere. Trying to delay somebody intentionally without consent or watching him/her is a sin. A person relieving in public in plain sight is an exception, I guess. But if I notice a stranger girl peeing outside I would not stop and start observing her, it's kind of creepy to me. 

I have a problem. I can't come without involving omo fetish in sexual life. I mean I get turned on seeing girl naked, having contact with her and all that stuff, but I can't reach the end of it. 

Which leads me to a dilemma : should I tell every single girl I date about my fetish or should I have this kind of situation

I agree that it matters that we don't try to make their situation worse. Despite having been around women who were desperate, I have always legitimately helped solve the situation because I think we should never put people into uncomfortable positions without consent. 

I don't need omo to cum, but I still talk about it pretty early in any relationship (sometimes before sex, frequently before we are actually in a real relationship), and think it is good to find a partner that can easily deal with it. So: yes, talk about it with potential partners (not the first time you meet them, obviously), and the worst that can happen is that you learn early on that they aren't into it.

My experience is also that a relationship where you can fully be, and share, about yourself is better than any where you cannot. So even if you could cum without involving it somehow, I would suggest you talk about it to those you are thinking about getting serious about.

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1 hour ago, TVGuy said:

It is normal to encounter arousing situations in day-to-day life.  We can't help what turns us on, so there is no use in feeling shame or guilt over something we can't control.  What we do have control over is the choices we make and how we choose to act.  Being with a friend who is desperate to pee may be a turn on, but that doesn't give you license to take steps to increase their desperation for your own enjoyment- Once you make that decision, to take a certain action without them consenting, that is where the line is crossed.  But, as long as you aren't altering your actions, you can't help but feel aroused just like your friend can't help needing to pee.  It is just what the situation is, no one has violated anyone's consent.  Once you start making choices and performing actions just to satisfy your kink, without the consent of others involved, that is where a line is being crossed.
 

In the U.S. there are certain spaces where the people are deemed to have a reasonable expectation of privacy.  Of course this includes their own homes, but it also extends to public bathrooms and locker rooms.  There are also certain events and types of businesses that enjoy this expectation of privacy.  In the case of this video you shared, it seems to be inside of a public bathroom which clearly falls under an expectation of privacy.  In this case, the person filming could indeed get in serious legal trouble.

Additionally, wiretap laws affect your ability to legally record audio of someone, even if they are in public, without their consent or awareness of being recorded.  Also, the use of the video has an impact on its legality.  While a video might be OK if it is used in an editorial or news context, that very same video might run afoul of revenge porn laws if its intent is to arouse, titillate, or appeal to the prurient interests as defined by law and specific consent is not granted by everyone appearing in the video.

Realdroplet is recorded in Indonesia, but is also illegal there because of laws banning pornography.

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1 hour ago, TVGuy said:

It is normal to encounter arousing situations in day-to-day life.  We can't help what turns us on, so there is no use in feeling shame or guilt over something we can't control.  What we do have control over is the choices we make and how we choose to act.  Being with a friend who is desperate to pee may be a turn on, but that doesn't give you license to take steps to increase their desperation for your own enjoyment- Once you make that decision, to take a certain action without them consenting, that is where the line is crossed.  But, as long as you aren't altering your actions, you can't help but feel aroused just like your friend can't help needing to pee.  It is just what the situation is, no one has violated anyone's consent.  Once you start making choices and performing actions just to satisfy your kink, without the consent of others involved, that is where a line is being crossed.
 

In the U.S. there are certain spaces where the people are deemed to have a reasonable expectation of privacy.  Of course this includes their own homes, but it also extends to public bathrooms and locker rooms.  There are also certain events and types of businesses that enjoy this expectation of privacy.  In the case of this video you shared, it seems to be inside of a public bathroom which clearly falls under an expectation of privacy.  In this case, the person filming could indeed get in serious legal trouble.

Additionally, wiretap laws affect your ability to legally record audio of someone, even if they are in public, without their consent or awareness of being recorded.  Also, the use of the video has an impact on its legality.  While a video might be OK if it is used in an editorial or news context, that very same video might run afoul of revenge porn laws if its intent is to arouse, titillate, or appeal to the prurient interests as defined by law and specific consent is not granted by everyone appearing in the video.

As always an intelligent, well thought out and well-informed response from Mr TVGuy.

I can get aroused by the sight of an attractive and shapely young lady walking down the street. If I let her pass by with only the odd glance in her direction with a few wistful thoughts of my mis-spent youth I do not feel I have in any way breached the principle of consent. On the other hand if I were to attempt to take a picture up her skirt, I certainly would have crossed that line.

Likewise getting a bit of extra pleasure if I notice that she appears to be desperate to pee seems to me to be fine. But attempting in some way to interfere with her ability to get to the bathroom I feel would be unacceptable. 

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