Is Gender A Spectrum?

105 posts in this topic

@EMT: I'd argue sexual orientation is only a small aspect of sexuality, and even then, I prefer the extra description of orientation featured in the Kinsey scale, which includes 8 categories:
0: Exclusively Hetero.
1: Predominantly Hetero
2: Bi with a preference for the opposite sex.
3: Bi with no clear preference.
4: bi with a preference for the same sex.
5: Predominantly homo.
6: Exclusively homo.
X: Asexual

Other aspects of sexuality include, but aren't necessarily limited to:
How important romance is to you.
What physical traits, aside from genitalia, you find attractive in a potential partner.
What personality traits you find attractive in a potential partner.
What kind of clothing enhances/detracts from a potential partner's physical attractiveness.
What fetishes one has.

And being into herm/futa/intersex could be argued as contributing to an orientation that doesn't fit in the Kinsey scale.

That said, I do think some individuals are trying to conflate other aspects of self with gender, though I can't really object to gender being used in the context of how masculine/feminine one is(though I still say there is no universal concept of masculinity/femininity that can be divorced from a particular culture) or how comfortable one is with the genitalia/sex chromosomes they were born with.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jeffery Mewtamer said:

@EMT: I'd argue sexual orientation is only a small aspect of sexuality, and even then, I prefer the extra description of orientation featured in the Kinsey scale, which includes 8 categories:
0: Exclusively Hetero.
1: Predominantly Hetero
2: Bi with a preference for the opposite sex.
3: Bi with no clear preference.
4: bi with a preference for the same sex.
5: Predominantly homo.
6: Exclusively homo.
X: Asexual

Other aspects of sexuality include, but aren't necessarily limited to:
How important romance is to you.
What physical traits, aside from genitalia, you find attractive in a potential partner.
What personality traits you find attractive in a potential partner.
What kind of clothing enhances/detracts from a potential partner's physical attractiveness.
What fetishes one has.

And being into herm/futa/intersex could be argued as contributing to an orientation that doesn't fit in the Kinsey scale.

That said, I do think some individuals are trying to conflate other aspects of self with gender, though I can't really object to gender being used in the context of how masculine/feminine one is(though I still say there is no universal concept of masculinity/femininity that can be divorced from a particular culture) or how comfortable one is with the genitalia/sex chromosomes they were born with.

Most of what you mentioned was more preference though. You can be bi, but have a preference. And herm/futa/intersex I would consider more a kink or genetic malfunction, depending on which one it is.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But, even when you reduce orientation to the false dichotomy of straight vs. Gay, it's still expressing a preference, so I'm not comprehending your objection to a framework that offers a standardized means of expressing that preference with greater nuance, and while i'd argue orientation is a continuous scale, subdividing it into seven parts as Kinsey did strikes me as a very reasonable balance between overly simplified and nuanced to the point that free form would make more sense than the framework.

Though perhaps this tangent is getting a bit too far from the main thread of discussion.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Jeffery Mewtamer said:

@EMT: I'd argue sexual orientation is only a small aspect of sexuality, and even then, I prefer the extra description of orientation featured in the Kinsey scale, which includes 8 categories:
0: Exclusively Hetero.
1: Predominantly Hetero
2: Bi with a preference for the opposite sex.
3: Bi with no clear preference.
4: bi with a preference for the same sex.
5: Predominantly homo.
6: Exclusively homo.
X: Asexual
 

 

What about that Australian woman who married a bridge in France?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe gender, sex, and preference are all on a spectrum.  With the exception of people who are born intersexed, sex is one or the other, male or female.  I had a professor in college who was born intersexed, and considered their sex to be "X", neither male nor female, and X is what they would write on that line.  Gender is more...fluid, I guess you could say.  For example, my brain is male.  The only feminine quality it possesses is a strong maternal instinct.  I prefer the friendship and company of men over that of women, because I have more in common with men, and feel more accepted by them.  I prefer to wear men's clothing, even their underwear.  However, I don't consider myself transgender.  I consider myself a woman with a guy's brain, nothing more.  Preference is something that's usually evolving in people, I know it is in me.  I used to consider myself straight, then bi, but now my greatest attraction is to an action figure.  

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, jc22jc said:

 

What about that Australian woman who married a bridge in France?

I think Kinsey's scale is fine and covers more than 99% of humanity. There are a select few whose primary attraction is to non-humans, like those who are into bestiality or that woman, who is an objectophile (primary or exlusive attraction to inanimate objects). I don't think that diminishes the value of the scale. It was a pretty radical statement in its day, as most people, even scientists, would at most distinguish between gay, straight and bi.

I would consider myself about a 1 on that scale. I have had two gay sexual experiences, but both occurred when I was highly intoxicated and one of those was borderline rape, if it wasn't actually rape. (I'm still struggling with that one. I was tricked into going home with a guy thinking there would be an afterparty, but it ended up being just the two of us. I was in no way aroused, he even asked me if I had any fetishes and he found some diaper porn, still couldn't get aroused. I never said no, willingly got ready for sex, but at the same time I think I was far too intoxicated to consent and he was very insistent, continually pushing me. I guess if I had not been at all curious about gay sex I would have left already, but the experience was only painful and shameful and I deeply regret it. If I was to experience gay sex I would want it to be while sober enough to meaningfully consent. But I've never had any fantasies of male sex. I think if I had done the same thing to a girl it would be called date rape.) The other never progressed to actual sex.

Unfortunately, these amphetamine-and-alcohol-fueled experiences are the only times I've ever admitted my fetishes to anyone in real life.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TLDR: Although I believe sexuality is very diverse and can thus be non-binary, I believe actual gender/sex is VERY binary.

I am born male, I can be as effeminate as I like, stick the middle finger up at society's bounds (more power to you if you do that) and wear a skirt or a female-themed fursuit, but my biology gives me narrower hips, broader shoulders, testosterone, excess body hair and external sexual organs. I am a man, a human male, whether I like it or not*.

Again, I have no qualms about what people want to do with their bodies as long as they don't break the law, but if a doctor needs to treat an injury or disease, they should know if you are manufactured as male or female or something else biologically.

*Luckily I like being a man. Growing facial hair earlier than my peers and developing masculine abilities (except having sex) first actually made me gain confidence after an entire childhood of bullying.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, my opinion on this is a little complex.
So I'm trans myself, female to male, so of course I believe that gender doesn't necessarily rely on genetics.
That said, I don't really believe in nonbinary genders. I think at the base level, all people are male or female, whether or not their gender matches up with their bodies.
I guess I can kind of get on board with agender/genderfluidity, but the 3rd Gender stuff just confuses me.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I know, sex is physical, and gender is psychological, a sexual role. I only believe there are 2 sexes, male and female, defined by genetics, sexual organs, hormones etc.. The genders used to be traditional male and female, but with equality stuff spread all around nowadays, you can be anything I guess. Instead of inventing new genders, I think people should just accept that every human as they are and stop labeling who's what, what they should be like and what group they belong to. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gender is by definition is the condition of being male or female.

Genetically we are females first, changing into male.

Both genders have qualities deemed masculine, and feminine for superficial or literal reasons.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my opinion will be a lot shorter than other peoples'

1: I do think that gender and sex are different, seeing as there ARE Transsexual people.

2: Saying Autism, I am a completely Cisgendered autistic person. Autism is not a gender.

3: I... really don't understand the idea of bigender or Agender or a lot of the 'spectrum' things, simply because I can't wrap my head around just what the internal feeling of being Both or Neither gender, and how you figure that out.

4: I think that whilst sex and gender are different, that they still are related in that biologically there are 2 'genders' and then there's differences in individuals that change peoples' own identification of how they see themselves AS those genders.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I was born male. 

Like many other people who were born male, I identified with the girls growing up, not with the boys, and with each year I had spent that many years of my life thinking of myself that way, and behaving accordingly, which gave me less and less in common with other male-bodied people.  

 

Unlike the typically described transgender person, though, I did not transition, am not transitioning, do not wish to transition.  My body isn't wrong.  Neither is my inclination to identify with girls and women.  I'm a male girl.  The girl part isn't sick or wrong.  The male part isn't sick or wrong either.  Most male-bodied people are boys or men, butr some of us are girls or women.  

 

For ME (not necessarily for other gender-variant people), sex is one thing and gender is something else.  I consider the plumbing, the actual morphology, to be sex, and the identity, the personality and the behavior and all the nuances and priorities and inclinations and stuff, that's gender.

 

Obviously, I believe you need more than two categories to describe the people in this world.  Calling me male or a man is insufficient.  Describing me as a woman or a girl isn't enough information either.  

Edited by KnottyBuoy
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/5/2016 at 2:02 PM, jc22jc said:

I got this list of a genuine gender fluid support site.

These people are not trolling as far as I can tell.

They seriously believe the following genders exist:

 

 

Abimegender: a gender that is profound, deep, and infinite; meant to resemble when one mirror is reflecting into another mirror creating an infinite paradox

Adamasgender: a gender which refuses to be categorized

Aerogender: a gender that is influenced by your surroundings

Aesthetigender: a gender that is derived from an aesthetic; also known as videgender

Affectugender: a gender that is affected by mood swings

Agender: the feeling of no gender/absence of gender or neutral gender

Agenderflux: being mostly agender except having small shifts towards other genders making them demigenders (because of the constancy of being agender)

Alexigender: a gender that is fluid between more than one gender but the individual cannot tell what those genders are

Aliusgender: a gender which is removed from common gender descriptors and guidelines

Amaregender: a gender that changes depending on who you’re in love with

Ambigender: defined as having the feeling of two genders simultaneously without fluctuation; meant to reflect the concept of being ambidextrous, only with gender

Ambonec: identifying as both man and woman, yet neither at the same time

Amicagender: a gender that changes depending on which friend you’re with

Androgyne: sometimes used in the case of “androgynous presentation”; describes the feeling of being a mix of both masculine and feminine (and sometimes neutral) gender qualities

Anesigender: feeling like a certain gender yet being more comfortable identifying with another

Angenital: a desire to be without primary sexual characteristics, without necessarily being genderless; one may be both angenital and identify as any other gender alongside

Anogender: a gender that fades in and out but always comes back to the same feeling

Anongender: a gender that is unknown to both yourself and others

Antegender: a protean gender which has the potential to be anything, but is formless and motionless, and therefore, does not manifest as any particular gender

Anxiegender: a gender that is affected by anxiety

Apagender: a feeling of apathy towards ones gender which leads to them not looking any further into it

Apconsugender: a gender where you know what it isn’t, but not what it is; the gender is hiding itself from you

Astergender: a gender that feels bright and celestial

Astralgender: a gender that feels connected to space

(POSSIBLE TRIGGER WARNING) Autigender: a gender that can only be understood in the context of being autistic

Autogender: a gender experience that is deeply personal to oneself

Axigender: when a person experiences two genders that sit on opposite ends of an axis; one being agender and the other being any other gender; these genders are experienced one at a time with no overlapping and with very short transition time.

Bigender: the feeling of having two genders either at the same time or separately; usually used to describe feeling “traditionally male” and “traditionally female”, but does not have to

Biogender: a gender that feels connected to nature in some way

Blurgender: the feeling of having more than one gender that are somehow blurred together to the point of not being able to distinguish or identify individual genders; synonymous with genderfuzz

Boyflux: when one feels mostly or all male most of the time but experience fluctuating intensity of male identity

Burstgender: and gender that comes in intense bursts of feeling and quickly fades back to the original state

Caelgender: a gender which shares qualities with outer space or has the aesthetic of space, stars, nebulas, etc.

Cassgender: the feeling of gender is unimportant to you

Cassflux: when the level of indifference towards your gender fluctuates

Cavusgender: for people with depression; when you feel one gender when not depressed and another when depressed

Cendgender: when your gender changes between one and its opposite

Ceterofluid: when you are ceterogender and your feelings fluctuate between masculine, feminine, and neutral

Ceterogender: a nonbinary gender with specific masculine, feminine, or neutral feelings

Cisgender: the feeling of being the gender you were assigned at birth, all the time (assigned (fe)male/feeling (fe)male)

Cloudgender: a gender that cannot be fully realized or seen clearly due to depersonalization/derealization disorder

Collgender: the feeling of having too many genders simultaneously to describe each one

Colorgender: a gender associated with one or more colors and the feelings, hues, emotions, and/or objects associated with that color; may be used like pinkgender, bluegender, yellowgender

Commogender: when you know you aren’t cisgender, but you settled with your assigned gender for the time being

Condigender: a gender that is only felt during certain circumstances

Deliciagender: from the Latin word delicia meaning “favorite”, meaning the feeling of having more than one simultaneous gender yet preferring one that fits better

Demifluid: the feeling your gender being fluid throughout all the demigenders; the feeling of having multiple genders, some static and some fluid

Demiflux: the feeling of having multiple genders, some static and some fluctuating

Demigender: a gender that is partially one gender and partially another

Domgender: having more than one gender yet one being more dominant than the others

Demi-vapor (term coined by @cotton-blossom-jellyfish): Continuously drifting to other genders, feeling spiritually transcendental when doing so while having a clear -slightly blurred- inner visual of your genders, transitions, and positive emotions. Tied to Demi-Smoke.

Demi-smoke (term coined by @cotton-blossom-jellyfish): A transcendental, spiritual gender roughly drifting to other genders that are unable to be foreseen and understood, shrouded in darkness within your inner visual. Elevating through mystery. Caused by a lack of inner interpretation and dark emotional states. Tied to Demi-Vapor.

Duragender: from the Latin word dura meaning “long-lasting”, meaning a subcategory of multigender in which one gender is more identifiable, long lasting, and prominent than the other genders

Egogender: a gender that is so personal to your experience that it can only be described as “you”

Epicene: sometimes used synonymously with the adjective “androgynous”; the feeling either having or not displaying characteristics of both or either binary gender; sometimes used to describe feminine male identifying individuals

Espigender: a gender that is related to being a spirit or exists on a higher or extradimensional plane

Exgender:  the outright refusal to accept or identify in, on, or around the gender spectrum

Existigender: a gender that only exists or feels present when thought about or when a conscious effort is made to notice it

Femfluid: having fluctuating or fluid gender feelings that are limited to feminine genders

Femgender: a nonbinary gender which is feminine in nature

Fluidflux: the feeling of being fluid between two or more genders that also fluctuate in intensity; a combination of genderfluid and genderflux

Gemigender: having two opposite genders that work together, being fluid and flux together

Genderblank: a gender that can only be described as a blank space; when gender is called into question, all that comes to mind is a blank space

Genderflow: a gender that is fluid between infinite feelings

Genderfluid: the feeling of fluidity within your gender identity; feeling a different gender as time passes or as situations change; not restricted to any number of genders

Genderflux: the feeling of your gender fluctuating in intensity; like genderfluid but between one gender and agender

Genderfuzz: coined by lolzmelmel; the feeling of having more than one gender that are somehow blurred together to the point of not being able to distinguish or identify individual genders; synonymous with blurgender

Gender Neutral: the feeling of having a neutral gender, whether somewhere in between masculine and feminine or a third gender that is separate from the binary; often paired with neutrois

Genderpunk: a gender identity that actively resists gender norms

Genderqueer: originally used as an umbrella term for nonbinary individuals; may be used as an identity; describes a nonbinary gender regardless of whether the individual is masculine or feminine leaning

Genderwitched: a gender in which one is intrigued or entranced by the idea of a particular gender, but is not certain that they are actually feeling it

Girlflux: when one feels mostly or all female most of the time but experiences fluctuating intensities of female identity

Glassgender: a gender that is very sensitive and fragile

Glimragender: a faintly shining, wavering gender

Greygender: having a gender that is mostly outside of the binary but is weak and can barely be felt

Gyragender: having multiple genders but understanding none of them

Healgender: a gender that once realized, brings lots of peace, clarity, security, and creativity to the individual’s mind

Heliogender: a gender that is warm and burning

Hemigender: a gender that is half one gender and half something else; one or both halves may be identifiable genders

Horogender: a gender that changes over time with the core feeling remaining the same

Hydrogender: a gender which shares qualities with water

Imperigender: a fluid gender that can be controlled by the individual

Intergender: the feeling of gender falling somewhere on the spectrum between masculine and feminine; note: do not confuse with intersex

Juxera: a feminine gender similar to girl, but on a separate plane and off to itself

Libragender: a gender that feels agender but has a strong connection to another gender

Magigender: a gender that is mostly gender and the rest is something else

Mascfluid: A gender that is fluid in nature, and restricted only to masculine genders

Mascgender: a non-binary gender which is masculine in nature.

Maverique: taken from the word maverick; the feeling of having a gender that is separate from masculinity, femininity, and neutrality, but is not agender; a form of third gender

Mirrorgender: a gender that changes to fit the people around you

Molligender: a gender that is soft, subtle, and subdued

Multigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand omnigender

Nanogender: feeling a small part of one gender with the rest being something else

Neutrois: the feeling of having a neutral gender; sometimes a lack of gender that leads to feeling neutral

Nonbinary: originally an umbrella term for any gender outside the binary of cisgenders; may be used as an individual identity; occasionally used alongside of genderqueer

Omnigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand polygender

Oneirogender: coined by anonymous, “being agender, but having recurring fantasies or daydreams of being a certain gender without the dysphoria or desire to actually be that gender day-to-day”

Pangender: the feeling of having every gender; this is considered problematic by some communities and thus has been used as the concept of relating in some way to all genders as opposed to containing every gender identity; only applies to genders within one’s own culture

Paragender: the feeling very near one gender and partially something else which keeps you from feeling fully that gender

Perigender: identifying with a gender but not as a gender

Polygender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand omnigender

Proxvir: a masculine gender similar to boy, but on a separate plane and off to itself

Quoigender: feeling as if the concept of gender is inapplicable or nonsensical to one’s self

Subgender: mostly agender with a bit of another gender

Surgender: having a gender that is 100% one gender but with more of another gender added on top of that

Systemgender: a gender that is the sum of all the genders within a multiple or median system

Tragender: a gender that stretches over the whole spectrum of genders

Transgender: any gender identity that transcends or does not align with your assigned gender or society’s idea of gender; the feeling of being any gender that does not match your assigned gender

Trigender: the feeling of having three simultaneous or fluctuating genders

Vapogender: a gender that sort of feels like smoke; can be seen on a shallow level but once you go deeper, it disappears and you are left with no gender and only tiny wisps of what you thought it was

Venngender: when two genders overlap creating an entirely new gender; like a venn diagram

Verangender: a gender that seems to shift/change the moment it is identified

Vibragender: a gender that is usually one stable gender but will occasionally changes or fluctuate before stabilizing again

Vocigender: a gender that is weak or hollow

These are feelings and dispositions, not genders.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Gender is by definition is the condition of being male or female.

If that is how you define gender, no wonder you believe there are only two of them.  It's kind of silly for us to try to discuss "gender" when you mean something different from what I mean when I say "gender".  Let's discuss terminology instead.

 

My word that goes with your definition is "sex".  I would say SEX is the condition of being male or female.  (Or intersex, but that's rare).

 

Do you completely not get what folks like me and the people on the gender fluid support site mean when WE say "gender", or do you understand it and disagree with it as an invalid definition?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gender IS a spectrum, and there are names for the different places where you can be on the spectrum, and those can vary based on what sexy parts you got when you were an embryo. People use a lot of different names for regions that overlap, and I think some of those names are redundant if you're looking at the biggest list jc22jc could find. But some people talking bullshit about a thing doesn't make others with, to you, similar opinions wrong. However, if someone truly identifies with any of these labels who am I to stop them or disrespect that choice? It doesn't affect me. If you accidentally misgender someone and that person says so, ask how that person wants to be referred to and use that from now on. It'll be okay, respect people's choices and you'll get respect back. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sex is what you are, gender is the sex you live as. Therfor there is only two. Any other "genders" are more just personality traits, but recently there has been a fad of labeling them as genders for some reason. So for example a male > female tranny would be female, though their sex would still be male. While a butch woman, while having masculine traits would still be female.

 

I am sure that will get me some negativity...

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/19/2017 at 0:03 PM, Earth Shock said:

Sex is what you are, gender is the sex you live as. Therfor there is only two.

 

 

I'm a male girl.  Neither the male part nor the girl part is wrong.  In a world that contains female girls, male girls, female boys, and male boys, what "two" are you referring to?

I have a friend who is genderfluid and has "girl days" and "boy days".  On any given day, maybe they are one of "two" genders but if you're going to categorize them overall how are you going to do so with only two to pick from?

 

You say a male>female transsexual would be female but their sex would be male.  (huh?)  (I guess you mean their gender would be female?)  How about the butch woman who doesn't intend to cease being female in body (sex) but considers butch to be different from either "woman" or "man".  If gender is the sex you live as, and she lives as a butch, why do you wish to contradict who she says she is and how she presents to the world?

On 1/19/2017 at 0:03 PM, Earth Shock said:

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a trans women, there are two genders, nothing more.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Expanding Kosmo's graph:

Here's my thoughts

                 Masculine

                          |

                          | 

Female |----------0----------| Male

                          |

                          |

                   Feminine

Edited by puddlezz
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, puddlezz said:

Expanding Kosmo's graph:

Here's my thoughts

                 Masculine

                          |

                          | 

Female |----------0----------| Male

                          |

                          |

                   Feminine

I believe masculine/feminine to do with personality, not gender.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^I agree that masculine and feminine are more aspects of personality, and I'll add my belief that they are largely cultural with little basis in instinctual behaviors that differ with sex. I also denounce the belief that there's any correlation between masculinity/femininity and sexual orientation(and to avoid confusion, I'm using orientation in the sense of which genitals you prefer on sexual partners and treating it as a small, but important part of a person's overall sexuality(other aspects including, but not limited to what physical features you find attractive, what personality traits you find attractive, your kinks, etc.).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel that if we can all agree that there's just male and female, then were good.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And even ignoring chromosomal abnormalities, there are lots of things that can interfere with normal development while in utero, some of which lead to unusual genitals, but such variations are fairly rare, and even people with chromosomal abnormalities often reach adulthood or even go their entire lives unaware of their condition.

 

The problem is that we still associate certain behaviors and personality traits with being biologically male or biologically female with no real basis in biology, bundle up these stereotypes into a binary concept of gender that is only partially divorced from biological sex, and then we have people coming along and claiming that some bundle of behaviors and personality traits that doesn't quite fit either of the widely accepted bundles we call masculine and feminine constitute a new gender. And to make matters worse, these people who want to claim their oddly specific combination of behaviors and personality traits constitute a distinct gender makes it harder for people dealing with genuine dysphoria over the genitals and secondary sex characteristics their body came with to be taken seriously.

 

No idea how much of personality is nature over nurture, and I'm pretty sure even the professionals don't have any clear answers on that subject, but raw probability says that it's unlikely all genes that affect personality are found on the X and Y chromosomes and far more likely that each chromosome pair contributes ~1/23 of the whole.

 

Outside of sexuality, I have my doubts that what's in your underwear has any significant impact on behavior or personality, and if we could fully divorce behavior and personality from sex and realize that people are different, that's okay, and any attempt to group people by personality is going to be inprecise at best, much of this debate would evaporate and maybe we could worry about something more important.

 

 

Outside of sexuality, I have my doubts that what's in your underwear has any meaningful impact on your behavior or personality

 

 

 

 

 

Outside of sexuality, I doubt what's in your underwe

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it should be because some people want it to and it doesn't have a direct affect on anyone. I honestly don't get the big deal about it, why does it matter what someone considers themselves.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.