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Ahh Brexit, that awful word that strikes fear into the hearts of politicians, EU bureaucrats and French farmers. It seems like it’s been rumbling on for an age, like an old Ford Anglia, whose brakes have burnt out, again. 

So why am I writing about it I hear you ask. Well, partly because I’m bored and partly, because I’d like to put my point of view across. 

So without further ado... 

When I put my cross on the ballot paper on that faithful day, I didn’t know which way the wind would blow. However, one thing was for certain, democracy would show us the way, and so it turned out... kind of. 

The following morning I woke to learn that indeed, the British public had voted to leave the EU super bloc. I was delighted. 

That same day a very competent Prime Minister resigned, a true shame I thought, Mr Cameron may have been too left leaning for my liking, but he knew what he was doing. However, I cannot say the same for his replacement, our current PM, Mrs May.

For now, I’ll outline my reasons for voting leave. 

1. Sovereignty; Deep down, I’m a nationalist, I’m proud of my country, our history and our deep roots in promoting and defending democracy; a fact which many EU nations should be well aware off. 

2. The EU; When the EEC was first devised the whole premise of the idea was to promote free trade, democracy, prosperity and political adhesion. Oh and to form a political super bloc against the Soviet Union. All good stuff. Except that’s not the case anymore, is it? 

Thd EU now is a nation of its own right, governed from Brussels and Berlin. It makes laws which all members MUST adhere too, it has its own bank, it’s own currency and is currently in the process of forming its own military. That is not something i want for Britain. 

3. British economic interests; Right now Britain trades freely with the EU, excellent! Except it isn’t actually free. The truth is, we pay for access to the “free market” by way of substantial contributions to the EU central bank, for which the British taxpayer sees what exactly? 

As it stands, EU nations and particularly Germany sell more to Britain than we sell to them, this is why Germany is keen to come to an agreement on free trade after our EU exit. So why should Britain pay for such things? Surely Britain is better off trading under WTO rules than forking out billions upon billions to fund the EU gravy train. Simply put, we’ll be better off trading with the WORLD, not just the EU. 

4. Common sense; I can sum up the EU in two words; rigid bureaucracy. You only have to  look at the behaviour of the EU leaders and “negotiators” throughout the current Brexit talks to understand this. The EU does not want Britain to leave and why? Because they fear it’ll start an exodus. European bigwigs fear that once Britain has shown the path, others will realise that the EU is not the be all and end all and that they can survive as an independent sovereign nation. 

Quite frankly I could go on all week, but I feel I have said enough. So I’ll end by saying this; I hope this was thought provoking. 

Also to all you Finnish folks; Hyvää Itsenäisyyspäivää 100-vuotias Suomi. 

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Huh, this is surprising. I have been loathe to speak of such politics on Facebook because it seemed like only angry Remain voters would speak on there and all Leave voters would be shunned if they dared to try explaining their point of view.

I actually concur with the Leave vote, because I despise the idea of any out-of-touch politicians getting their say over British laws and regulations, it's bad enough having the necessary evil of a monarch or in this case 'Prime Minister', worse still to have some person setting rules in stone the entire EU simultaneously. I was unsure about the exact effects on the economy, but I knew that bureaucratically things were abysmal having some king of Europe bossing the United Kingdom about (must be how the ancient Celts felt under Rome).

One problem is that the worst types of patriots (racists) came out to play shortly following the Brexit vote due to a foolish sense of authority to bully people. As much as Remain voters are right to worry about such delinquents and brigands, bands of 'Britain First' KKK impersonators should not be used to reflect the entirety of Leave voters.

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As a strong Remainer, I really respect your level of awareness around the topic. Nevertheless, I’m going to unpick your points as best I can.

On 06/12/2017 at 7:37 PM, Spurgle said:

Ahh Brexit, that awful word that strikes fear into the hearts of politicians, EU bureaucrats and French farmers. It seems like it’s been rumbling on for an age, like an old Ford Anglia, whose brakes have burnt out, again. 

So why am I writing about it I hear you ask. Well, partly because I’m bored and partly, because I’d like to put my point of view across. 

So without further ado... 

When I put my cross on the ballot paper on that faithful day, I didn’t know which way the wind would blow. However, one thing was for certain, democracy would show us the way, and so it turned out... kind of. 

The following morning I woke to learn that indeed, the British public had voted to leave the EU super bloc. I was delighted. 

That same day a very competent Prime Minister resigned, a true shame I thought, Mr Cameron may have been too left leaning for my liking, but he knew what he was doing. However, I cannot say the same for his replacement, our current PM, Mrs May.

For now, I’ll outline my reasons for voting leave. 

1. Sovereignty; Deep down, I’m a nationalist, I’m proud of my country, our history and our deep roots in promoting and defending democracy; a fact which many EU nations should be well aware off. 

Yep, Britain is a great nation and our culture, our heritage, deserves valuing. I’m not sure that this is a reason for voting Leave, however. You mention democracy; the EU also works to promote and defend democracy. (In my opinion, a lot of the voting systems used in the EU constitution and other countries are actually more democratic than our parliamentary first-past-the-post system). The EU aren’t attacking our culture. How is this a reason to vote Leave?

Quote

2. The EU; When the EEC was first devised the whole premise of the idea was to promote free trade, democracy, prosperity and political adhesion. Oh and to form a political super bloc against the Soviet Union. All good stuff. Except that’s not the case anymore, is it? 

Thd EU now is a nation of its own right, governed from Brussels and Berlin. It makes laws which all members MUST adhere too, it has its own bank, it’s own currency and is currently in the process of forming its own military. That is not something i want for Britain. 

The ECB isn’t our central bank and we don’t use the euro, so that’s a null point. We’re not involved with the development of an EU military either. In fact, there are lots of centralised EU projects (like the Schengen Agreement) which the UK has chosen not to partake in. We maintain our sovereignty where we please already.

Quote

3. British economic interests; Right now Britain trades freely with the EU, excellent! Except it isn’t actually free. The truth is, we pay for access to the “free market” by way of substantial contributions to the EU central bank, for which the British taxpayer sees what exactly? 

As it stands, EU nations and particularly Germany sell more to Britain than we sell to them, this is why Germany is keen to come to an agreement on free trade after our EU exit. So why should Britain pay for such things? Surely Britain is better off trading under WTO rules than forking out billions upon billions to fund the EU gravy train. Simply put, we’ll be better off trading with the WORLD, not just the EU. 

We pay for these things because of the lack of trade tariffs- part of the Four Freedoms. It is cheaper for us to import products from the EU than other nations because there’s no tax. Prices on commodities are rising post-Brexit.

Quote

4. Common sense; I can sum up the EU in two words; rigid bureaucracy. You only have to  look at the behaviour of the EU leaders and “negotiators” throughout the current Brexit talks to understand this. The EU does not want Britain to leave and why? Because they fear it’ll start an exodus. European bigwigs fear that once Britain has shown the path, others will realise that the EU is not the be all and end all and that they can survive as an independent sovereign nation. 

Quite frankly I could go on all week, but I feel I have said enough. So I’ll end by saying this; I hope this was thought provoking. 

Also to all you Finnish folks; Hyvää Itsenäisyyspäivää 100-vuotias Suomi. 

The reason Brexit talks aren’t progressing is the ineptitude of May’s government. If you want to leave the EU, you’ve got to bring to the table what you want and how to achieve it, not expect it handed to you. She is incapable of that.

 

There’s my counterargument. I see this was posted in Off-Topic and not Debate Zone, but I’m yet to see a thread about Brexit (or UK politics) over there.

Edited by OPencil

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Where is Cameron amongst all this he seems to have disappeared off the map without an explanation.

In my opinion yes the vote on leave or remain should go to the population of the UK, but before this happened he should have explained IN DETAIL about everything that would be involved. Maybe then the out come of the vote as to whether we remain or stay would have been different, instead of just jumping ship and going into hiding.

I think he as a lot to answer for here.

  

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I'm glad we're leaving the one world government order of evil but I wish it were handled better!

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For goodness sake get on with this Brexit its driving everybody mad in the UK,tell the EC to shove it and let the UK  go it alone.

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Nearly 2 years further down the line from when @Spurgle started this thread, I thought it was time to throw my thoughts into the ring.

Alas we are little, if any further on with the whole Brexit process, and all our political ‘elite’ have managed to do is alienate the entire nation, along with the rest of the EU. We’re now in a position where our PM (oh how it sticks in my throat, referring to Boris by that title!) does not command any kind of majority, has little respect in Parliament and has proven that he is not above acting unlawfully if it suits him. He’s also in quite a catch-22 situation of his own making, as he has committed to leaving the EU on 31st October this year ‘do-or-die’, yet Parliament has enacted legislation which will basically prevent him from keeping this promise in the absence of an agreed deal which has been approved by Parliament, something which he has about as much chance of achieving as I have of being elected as the next PM!

I voted Leave in the referendum, and in the event that a further referendum is held then, depending on the options on the table (as Labour have pledged to offer a choice between an agreed, ratified deal or remain) I would likely vote leave again. So you’d think, as a leaver, that I’d be firmly in Boris’ camp, but I’m afraid I simply cannot back a man who treats our democracy with such contempt. The rule of law and the sovereignty of Parliament are sacrosanct so far as I am concerned, and Boris has proven time and time again just how little regard he holds them in

Far more important than Brexit, however, and far more disturbing, is the dangerous and inflammatory manner in which Boris is currently conducting proceedings and allowing matters to be discussed, the entirely unacceptable language which is being used and the blasé attitude he has taken. I don’t know whether anybody else had the displeasure of witnessing events in the Commons chamber yesterday evening? However for those that Didn’t, Boris used the murder and memory of a parliamentary colleague, who died in an unprovoked attack because of her views and the way she campaigned to further those views for the benefit of the constituents she represented, to score political points. A truly unforgivable act, and one which has been condemned by all sides, including his own government ministers.

I made comment on a thread over in the Suggestions forum about how members here had conducted themselves in what was a very emotive and charged debate on a difficult subject, for which they should all be commended. It’s just a shame that our political leaders cannot manage to debate matters of great sensitivity and public importance in the same manner without the need for underhand tactics, personal jibes and frankly disgusting political point scoring off the back of the loss of an innocent life.

Edited by Piddly
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A democratic Brexit is not possible, the referendum conflated the opposing ideas that “the people” (how I have come to hate that expression) can decide against the fact that Parliament is sovereign and we quite rightly elect MPs to make political decisisions for us, you can’t have it both ways

Johnson should have resigned yesterday, but unsurprisingly he does not believe he is accountable to anyone 

the only way forward as I see it is to start the process again with a clear deal for leaving  If that is still the wish of the majority

Edited by BladderLad
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Absolutely! This is what I shared on Social Media when Labour announced their Brexit stance/strategy.

How we ended up with Boris, I'll never understand. But how we're still stuck with him, after what he has done in such a short time in office, really does beggar belief.

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Lots of people querying Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour Brexit strategy, or in many cases simply misunderstanding it.

Is it ideal? Nope, not really.

But, is it fair, reasonable, proportionate, understandable and above all both lawful and democratic? Yes, absolutely on all counts.

Rightly or wrongly, I voted leave in 2016. In an ideal world, I’d like to have seen us leave the EU before now, but unfortunately that’s not quite how things have panned out. May and Johnson have made a right hash of the whole thing, and here we are 3 years later still trying to find a way forward. 

In 3 years, lots has gone on, and in all honesty the opinions and the democratic view of the people are likely to have changed as a result. Some who voted leave would now vote remain, some who voted remain would now vote leave. Some who didn’t vote would now be first in the queue, and some who campaigned strongly may now not even bother casting their ballot. The ultimate outcome of a referendum now may be exactly the same, it may differ in terms of margin, or it may be reversed entirely and without taking a vote to measure the current public view nobody can really know.

We hold regular elections within our local and national government, within our trade unions and associations and even within our corporate business boardrooms. Why do we do this? Because over a period of time the will of the people, the electors, is likely to change, influenced by events in the interim period. We don’t ask people to make a choice, elect representatives and then force them to be represented by the same body of people indefinitely, we allow them to exercise their will on a regular basis.

So yes, it shouldn’t be necessary to hold another public referendum on the issue of Brexit, but because those charged with leading the process have failed so spectacularly it’s probably not unreasonable and certainly not undemocratic to gauge whether the will of the people overall remains the same. If it does, then this has to be respected. If it doesn’t, then the new outcome has to be respected. That’s democracy.

Unhappy with that? Fair enough, as I said it’s not ideal, but take it up with those who have squandered countless opportunities to deliver on the will of the people as measured in 2016 - nobody can say they’ve not had long enough to put this issue to bed once and for all. After a period of 3 years, and being no nearer to actually achieving anything either way given the divides in the country and the broken excuse for a representative Government sitting in a divided and divisive Parliament, it really isn’t unreasonable to ask the people again what they think now. 

I voted leave in 2016, I’d probably still vote leave now (depending on the proposed terms, which would be agreed prior to a decisive referendum vote being taken on this occasion), and whether the outcome of any such public vote happens to agree with me or not I’d respect it. I’d also be eternally grateful that a democratic solution had been found so that those we pay handsomely to govern our country can get on with doing exactly that instead of wasting further years on petty squabbles and childish name calling over this issue. 

Boris is in a Catch-22, he can’t deliver Brexit on 31st October and nor can we remain beyond October 31st, he’s tied himself up in so many knots that he hasn’t a hope of unravelling, and constitutionally he’s backed himself into a corner. Labour may not be perfect, but they’re offering us a democratic way out of this hole the Tories have kept on digging, so it’s got to be worth considering surely?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Piddly said:

Absolutely! This is what I shared on Social Media when Labour announced their Brexit stance/strategy.

How we ended up with Boris, I'll never understand. But how we're still stuck with him, after what he has done in such a short time in office, really does beggar belief.

 

 

Well said 🙂

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Well I hope for you who voted to leave Britain doesn't come to an agreement. The UK is an economic centre but as a little island whithout any economic agreements to the countries arround what do you think is going to happen? Prices will go up, everytime you want to go out of the country you will have to pay a visa, tourism may decrease and some bussines may leave because it's not beneficial to them, and your currency is already low and may get lower. Moreover you are going to throw out a lot of inmigrants or make new laws allowing them to stay. Also you got the problem of Scotland who mostly stayed in the UK because they were part of the EU...

As I see it the rest of the EU didn't want the UK to leave because that may make the EU seem weaker against the global super powers. Speaking of those, that is one of the things the EU is all about, having a big territory and products to compete with the giants. 

You chose your future and robbed the people who voted stay of theirs. As you say, you made your bed so now lay on it. 

All I am saying is that at the end of the month you go bye bye and good luck!

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The way i see it Britain is fucked I'm suffering because of all this political bullshit it pisses me off so i wouldn't have anything practical to add I'd just be rambling while all those.....things i can't call them people because honestly they're not just sit on their arses doing absolutely nothing while everyone suffers I'm sick of it, i really am😔😔

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Never felt more sad to be British- I equate Brexit to a country going to war with itself- Unfortunately our appalling Prime Minister is more interested in the UK becoming another US state than anything else 

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2 hours ago, BladderLad said:

Never felt more sad to be British- I equate Brexit to a country going to war with itself- Unfortunately our appalling Prime Minister is more interested in the UK becoming another US state than anything else 

Mate the whole country is fucked

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37 minutes ago, Dravid61+ said:

It will be even worst if Corbyn gets in

Really?! It's difficult to imagine *anything* being worse than the current web of deceit...

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I don't follow Foreign politics(hell, I barely follow domestic politics), but would I be correct in assuming the major parties over there seldom put forth halfway decent candidates and have too much of a strangle hold on the electoral system to give minor party and independant candidates a fair chance? Becauses that's how things tend to run here in the States, though I understand Brits at least have a third party with enough pull to actually force some cross-party cooperation in order to get anything done.

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