Police Brutality- Real Problem or Diversion-

Recommended Posts

I'm pretty sure probability says the chances are good that black officers sometimes attack white civilians and that sometimes excessive force is used, and it doesn't strike me as unreasonable that incidents of black-on-white police brutality recieve less media coverage then maybe they should. It's hard to know the exact numbers because police records aren't always complete and accurate and I'm sure there are some police records that are kept hidden from the public, and it's not like misbehaving cops haven't been known to destroy witnesses' phones to get rid of video evidence when an incident occurs out of line of sight of a security camera, and despite evidence that many cops are a disgrace to the badge, usually the officer's version of events gets favored in the court of public opinion when there's no proof beyond the statements of officer and the civilian they apprehended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Police brutality is a major topic of discourse in the USA. However, do you believe that it is as a big of a problem as the media and the violent protesters have insinuated? After all, those people refer to no more than 20 cases of allegedly "unjust" uses of force by police. However, those very same people ignore problems that are exponentially more prevalent in our society. Particularly, I refer to the hundreds of murders that happen in the major cities of our nation everyday.

 

Let's not be politically correct here. The accusers (media, black lives matters, activists) allege that this is a black vs white problem. The problem I speak of now, mass numbers of shootings that occur everyday in New York, Baltimore, Los Angeles, etc, are problems mostly held between minorities (black and hispanic people). In other words, this is a black vs. black or black vs. latino problem.

 

I know that police brutality happens, and nobody denies this (not even the police, who routinely punish their own for such behaviors). However, is it fair to put this overwhelming declaration on the police that they are a racist force of no good, hellbent at exterminating another  race, when these alleged acts, if proven, are of much lesser magnitude than the street murders of everyday?

-Let's focus on the existence of black police officers

-Black police officers who arrest minorities

-Black police officers who are killed in the line of duty

    -How nobody cares about the "black lives lost" when the death is caused (most often so) by other black people.

 

 

This is all down to Americas weird obsession with race.

 

Last week some confused autistic kid was shot by police but because he was white you hardly hear a peep about it.

But if its a black kid there would be protests and burnings and comments from the president.

 

My suggestion to America would be to stop dividing yourselves by race and if you must group people together and prejudge them, do it in terms of the rich and poor. The people in control absolutely love it when poor white and poor black people are set against each other. Because it distracts people from what they are doing.

Edited by jc22jc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You think that it's going to be written down if a black cop beats up a white civilian for no reason? Of course it's not. Now I'm going to back out of this conversation, before I get pulled into a childish argument.

You're already sounding childish yourself by making claims you can't actually back up with any real evidence.

This is all down to Americas weird obsession with race.

 

Last week some confused autistic kid was shot by police but because he was white you hardly hear a peep about it.

But if its a black kid there would be protests and burnings and comments from the president.

 

My suggestion to America would be to stop dividing yourselves by race and if you must group people together and prejudge them, do it in terms of the rich and poor. The people in control absolutely love it when poor white and poor black people are set against each other. Because it distracts people from what they are doing.

Blame the media, they're the ones dividing by race, don't blame the citizens.  People aren't "distracted" just cause there's more stories about black people being abused by cops than caucasians.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You think that it's going to be written down if a black cop beats up a white civilian for no reason? Of course it's not.

Actually I do think there would be. I'm pretty sure there is a large majority of this country that would have an outrage if they felt they were discriminated against.  Additionally the ACLU (american civil liberties union, the people who help you in court and pay all your fees if you've had your rights violated by the government) accepts all cases regardless of color, the victim would have plenty of help/attention if it happened.

 

And I'm not saying it can't happen or hasn't happened, just that it's less common. (entirely possible due to the majority of the police being white)

And that once again, you shouldn't assert things as true and expect others to believe them unless you can back it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It shouldn't matter if it is or isn't racially based. It's still unacceptable on all levels. Also, I've seen way too many videos now to care at this point. No matter what color you are, you shouldn't be shot or put in a chokehold for asking questions. It's a problem with the system itself, and how the police today are taught. A big part of the problem is the fact that so much military equipment is being put into police forces, another is the fact that no one wants to pay taxes, and the police department has to basically become a mafia extortion racket to stay afloat. I also don't like the way the police stick to their own, and no matter how horrible the act they commit is, explain it away, and pretend it's okay. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It shouldn't matter if it is or isn't racially based. It's still unacceptable on all levels. Also, I've seen way too many videos now to care at this point. No matter what color you are, you shouldn't be shot or put in a chokehold for asking questions. It's a problem with the system itself, and how the police today are taught. A big part of the problem is the fact that so much military equipment is being put into police forces, another is the fact that no one wants to pay taxes, and the police department has to basically become a mafia extortion racket to stay afloat. I also don't like the way the police stick to their own, and no matter how horrible the act they commit is, explain it away, and pretend it's okay. 

Whoa, the number of videos showing "alleged" police improprieties is irrelevant when you compare them to the number of police incidents that occur in the country as whole. While you may argue that every person matters, I will point out to you that your hyperbolic hatred for what the police do, has amounted to your inexplicable hatred for the enforcement of the law. You believe that because you have seen some provocative, out-of-context videos on the internet, then you have an accurate view of what the actually do in order to complete their jobs. You are utterly wrong, because your examples never include the circumstances leading to the police encounter.

 

You want to "demilitarize" the police, but I will point out to the incident in Paris as one major example as to why the police must be armed with Bearcats and automatic weapons. While incidents of that proportion are rather rare, you will find that on a daily basis the police must deal with heavily-armed gangsters, hostage takers, and other unconventional malicious individuals who require the intervention of police that are geared in military equipment.

 

Yes, you are right about the police sticking to their own, but many times they are not wrong for doing this, especially when they are truly a brotherhood. However, lets put aside the cliche blue-line crap, and realize that there are in fact shitty people who become police officers. Also, I admit that there are even shittier people who will cover up the acts of the bad seeds. Regardless, these acts of mischief and beguilement, shall not be used to misconstrue the police as a "mafia extortion racket". The police is composed of too many great people performing unfathomable, unrecognized acts of benevolence for this description to even have the slightest relevance to them. If you believe that questioning people who match the description of suspects in a crime is considered to be mafia activity, then I strongly believe that you are using this post deflect some strong feelings you had in a police interaction.... The police are not here to harm everybody, and they are not implementing martial law as it seems you are implying with your desire to "demilitarize" the police.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I decided to look up The Basic Law Enforcement Training Curriculum offered by the Community college I received my Associates Degrees from. The fact the program is a single semester(granted, it's an all-day program and isn't broken down into individual courses), I'm worried that our Nations police officers, or at least the ones in North Carolina, are woefully undertrained, especially in such things as non-violent conflict resolution(seriously, it should be a habit of every police officer to reflect on incidents and ask questions including "How could I have gotten the same or greater positive results with the same or fewer negative results while using less force?"). Also, while I'm willing to accept that that the loose cannons are a minority among police officers, I'm not convinced that most police officers are genuinely good people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Took a quick look over the debate. Want to add my .02 cents here. 

 

 

There are bad police officers(Or LEO or Law Enforcement Officers). They make up a fraction of the total police force in the United States though. A good chunk of the belief that all police departments are racist is based on perceptions. Bad cops make the news more for than good cops or cops doing there job. 

 

We can use numbers of LEO involved shootings, but all the factors must be considered. Were the shootings justified or not? What did the suspect do? A lot of incidents happen when the suspect or person being questioned decides to become a street lawyer. There is a FBI statistic out there that explores some police shootings, but it's incomplete because the majority of departments have not sent in their data( It's not mandatory). I would support a study that would bring in all the big data for that. 

 

Officer Wilson was not indicted by the Grand Jury for good reason. If the DOJ(Department of Justice) found that he had committed wrongdoing, he would have been indicted. It's true he was in a previous department that was disbanded, but the news also reported he had a clean record. 

 

The United States has always struggled with its past in terms of race. Cleaning up departments and charging officers who break the law and are racially motivated is one step. To level the blame square and solely on the Police is not the way to solve it. It's a multi-front issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I decided to look up The Basic Law Enforcement Training Curriculum offered by the Community college I received my Associates Degrees from. The fact the program is a single semester(granted, it's an all-day program and isn't broken down into individual courses), I'm worried that our Nations police officers, or at least the ones in North Carolina, are woefully undertrained, especially in such things as non-violent conflict resolution(seriously, it should be a habit of every police officer to reflect on incidents and ask questions including "How could I have gotten the same or greater positive results with the same or fewer negative results while using less force?"). Also, while I'm willing to accept that that the loose cannons are a minority among police officers, I'm not convinced that most police officers are genuinely good people.

 

I agree with you that some states do not provide enough basic training for officers. However, it is hard to judge officer training based on the time in the classroom. Many training programs from 6-8 months of continuous training of at least 8-10 hours per day, 6 days per week. The officers eat and sleep training during these programs which last much longer any military basic training program. To top the classroom/practical training of officers, they are not allowed to patrol by themselves until they complete months of preceptor training. This means that for months they are patrolling the streets with an experienced senior officer mentor. Additionally, both new and experienced officers receive hundreds of hours of yearly training, which includes firearm training, medical training, and conflict resolution. To add, many officers have college degrees in criminal justice, psychology, and sociology. I believe that many are far more trained and educated than you believe, no?

Took a quick look over the debate. Want to add my .02 cents here. 

 

 

There are bad police officers(Or LEO or Law Enforcement Officers). They make up a fraction of the total police force in the United States though. A good chunk of the belief that all police departments are racist is based on perceptions. Bad cops make the news more for than good cops or cops doing there job. 

 

We can use numbers of LEO involved shootings, but all the factors must be considered. Were the shootings justified or not? What did the suspect do? A lot of incidents happen when the suspect or person being questioned decides to become a street lawyer. There is a FBI statistic out there that explores some police shootings, but it's incomplete because the majority of departments have not sent in their data( It's not mandatory). I would support a study that would bring in all the big data for that. 

 

Officer Wilson was not indicted by the Grand Jury for good reason. If the DOJ(Department of Justice) found that he had committed wrongdoing, he would have been indicted. It's true he was in a previous department that was disbanded, but the news also reported he had a clean record. 

 

The United States has always struggled with its past in terms of race. Cleaning up departments and charging officers who break the law and are racially motivated is one step. To level the blame square and solely on the Police is not the way to solve it. It's a multi-front issue. 

i agree

Edited by realmadrid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have time for an in-depth reply at the moment, but I have to wonder why a firearm is part of the US Police Officer's standard gear when many other developed nations only allow officers to carry guns under special circumstances if at all. In general, it could be argued that the typical US Police officer is equipped more like a soldier than a law enforcement agent when you compare the US to the rest of the developed world.

In most cases I've seen guns are used as an intimidation tool Instead of a killing weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While it is hard to compare the social and demographic situation in the US with Western Europa and the effects on community policing. The fact is, that takes a minimum of 3 years to become a basic police officer in Germany or the Netherlands. Compare that to the US and it should tell us more than enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is one of those questions that will never really be answered, not yet anyway. Some cops are good, some cops are bad. The amount of good cops far outweigh the amount of bad cops, but the bad deeds of bad cops are far stronger in the minds of the public than the good deeds of the good cops. Its a sort of unfortunate social balance. Corrupt people will always be attracted to positions of power, so there's not much that can be done about it.

 

What we can do, is train them like dogs in a sense. Negative and positive reinforcement. Heavily denounce the bad ones, take away privileges, put stronger rules in place, and remove their status of being favored by the law. On other hand, we need to appreciate the good officers more. They need to be recognized on social media and the news more, because frankly its like nobody gives a remote shit about them. Good officers are everyday heroes, and they deserve more recognition. What they DON'T deserve is to be affected by the bad ones...Disarming officers wouldn't save lives, because crime would spike when the public found out. Cause and effect, and many good people would be killed. Criminals with guns would feel invincible.

 

Again. Reinforce the positive, punish the negative. That's all it should take. If being bad stops benefiting them, and being corrupt with power lessens their power, they will stop. Reinforce the positive and praise them for it like the media rarely does, and more good will come. Its that simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Disarming officers wouldn't save lives, because crime would spike when the public found out. Cause and effect, and many good people would be killed. Criminals with guns would feel invincible.

 

This is an enormous difference between the US and for example the UK. Most cops in the UK patrol the streets unarmed, they have  an 'response'  unit on stand-by but it can take a while before those arrive. Do you see all the criminals in the UK with fire-arms robbing banks and act like invincible gods? Yet on the other hand, I don't think I would like to be a on duty police officer in the US without a fire-arm. The numer of 'shooting incidents'  in Europa is almost non existent if you compare that to ' the States'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an enormous difference between the US and for example the UK. Most cops in the UK patrol the streets unarmed, they have an 'response' unit on stand-by but it can take a while before those arrive. Do you see all the criminals in the UK with fire-arms robbing banks and act like invincible gods? Yet on the other hand, I don't think I would like to be a on duty police officer in the US without a fire-arm. The numer of 'shooting incidents' in Europa is almost non existent if you compare that to ' the States'.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the UK has a high restriction for firearms than the US.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the UK has a high restriction for firearms than the US.

 

Although I'm not 100% sure, I think we only dispatch a firearm team if the criminals are armed with firearms. But it's a really rare scenario.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I'm not 100% sure, I think we only dispatch a firearm team if the criminals are armed with firearms. But it's a really rare scenario.

I can see that. I remember visiting London after the 2005 bombings and seeing officers patrolling with MP5's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the UK has a high restriction for firearms than the US.

 

Correct, but that only counts for legal possession. Restriction works in the UK and for that reason, on duty patrol officers have no need of firearms. Should the US enfore equal restrictions within the States, I have my doubts if it will have the same positive effects. Crimsonfox said that crime would spike in a earlier post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Police brutality is not a real problem. It exists and occurs, but is swiftly caught, the perpetrator stripped of power, and sent to face charges. Those in blue don't care much for those that would tarnish the badge. 

 

Also, do not make this about race. Racial profiling is something everyone does, it's part of what makes us human, and if anything, police officers are trained to acknowledge and disregard it except in specific cases where races play into specific descriptions of suspects or gangs predominantly populated by a certain nationality.

 

It is coming into the popular spotlight at the moment with the advent of social media, specifically the permeation of social media to all peoples and classes, and specific groups are using it to spread misinformation and sensationalism to undermine the police and the government. Mainstream media has caught on to the sensationalism and realizing that it is popular, is marketing it and spinning it to sell.


Correct, but that only counts for legal possession. Restriction works in the UK and for that reason, on duty patrol officers have no need of firearms. Should the US enfore equal restrictions within the States, I have my doubts if it will have the same positive effects. Crimsonfox said that crime would spike in a earlier post.

 

The UK and countries outside the US have always had a lower firearm possession rate than the US. They are EVERYWHERE here. An attempt to disarm the populace would require the activation of military forces, systematic and forceful (and illegal/unconstitutional) searches of every home and dwelling in the US, and would do nothing to combat the illegal firearms in circulation. It would also be a catastrophic failure and would basically destabilize the US Government's ability to regulate the populace based on a massive loss of civic trust. Any working model for gun control in the US MUST acknowledge that guns will be present in the populace, legal or otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Police brutality is not a real problem. It exists and occurs, but is swiftly caught, the perpetrator stripped of power, and sent to face charges. Those in blue don't care much for those that would tarnish the badge. 

 

Also, do not make this about race. Racial profiling is something everyone does, it's part of what makes us human, and if anything, police officers are trained to acknowledge and disregard it except in specific cases where races play into specific descriptions of suspects or gangs predominantly populated by a certain nationality.

 

It is coming into the popular spotlight at the moment with the advent of social media, specifically the permeation of social media to all peoples and classes, and specific groups are using it to spread misinformation and sensationalism to undermine the police and the government. Mainstream media has caught on to the sensationalism and realizing that it is popular, is marketing it and spinning it to sell.

 

The UK and countries outside the US have always had a lower firearm possession rate than the US. They are EVERYWHERE here. An attempt to disarm the populace would require the activation of military forces, systematic and forceful (and illegal/unconstitutional) searches of every home and dwelling in the US, and would do nothing to combat the illegal firearms in circulation. It would also be a catastrophic failure and would basically destabilize the US Government's ability to regulate the populace based on a massive loss of civic trust. Any working model for gun control in the US MUST acknowledge that guns will be present in the populace, legal or otherwise.

Very nice response, very well said. If only people would realize that even though "unjustified" shootings are bad, they are so rare in comparison to all of the other thousands of police interactions that occur on a daily basis. Likewise, police brutality is very rare, and exponentially more rare than violent crimes committed primarily by a select few racial groups. Yet, those more common acts of violence barely get any attention from the people that say they are for justice of the innocent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Police brutality is not a real problem. It exists and occurs, but is swiftly caught, the perpetrator stripped of power, and sent to face charges. Those in blue don't care much for those that would tarnish the badge. 

 

Also, do not make this about race. Racial profiling is something everyone does, it's part of what makes us human, and if anything, police officers are trained to acknowledge and disregard it except in specific cases where races play into specific descriptions of suspects or gangs predominantly populated by a certain nationality.

 

It is coming into the popular spotlight at the moment with the advent of social media, specifically the permeation of social media to all peoples and classes, and specific groups are using it to spread misinformation and sensationalism to undermine the police and the government. Mainstream media has caught on to the sensationalism and realizing that it is popular, is marketing it and spinning it to sell.

 

The UK and countries outside the US have always had a lower firearm possession rate than the US. They are EVERYWHERE here. An attempt to disarm the populace would require the activation of military forces, systematic and forceful (and illegal/unconstitutional) searches of every home and dwelling in the US, and would do nothing to combat the illegal firearms in circulation. It would also be a catastrophic failure and would basically destabilize the US Government's ability to regulate the populace based on a massive loss of civic trust. Any working model for gun control in the US MUST acknowledge that guns will be present in the populace, legal or otherwise.

Nobody is "making it about race", it IS about race, don't you dare try and tell me that Sandra Bland's suspicious death had nothing to do with her skin color.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nobody is "making it about race", it IS about race, don't you dare try and tell me that Sandra Bland's suspicious death had nothing to do with her skin color.

Sandra Bland's 'suspicious death' had nothing to do with her skin color. She hung herself in jail.

 

My response about race was directly to the OP of the thread, who wanted to talk about black and policing, and I wanted to avoid making an issue about race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nobody is "making it about race", it IS about race, don't you dare try and tell me that Sandra Bland's suspicious death had nothing to do with her skin color.

Her death in jail is suspicious, but nothing definite has come yet. For all we know it was suicide. The investigation has not been released yet to my knowledge.

I remember the dash cam video awhile back. The cops choice of words was not good, but I'm pretty sure she was arguing with the cop too for the stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Her death in jail is suspicious, but nothing definite has come yet. For all we know it was suicide. The investigation has not been released yet to my knowledge.

I remember the dash cam video awhile back. The cops choice of words was not good, but I'm pretty sure she was arguing with the cop too for the stop.

 

You're right about that, I' have definitely spoken differently, however, the prompt for the arrest (and subsequent use of force) was that she had refused to put out a lit cigarette during a traffic stop, argued with the police officer, and then refused to exit the vehicle and became physically combative with the officer shortly after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heard about that too. Unfortunately many of this incidents happen when the person pulled over or stopped decides to play street lawyer. Comply and complain weren't used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sandra Bland's 'suspicious death' had nothing to do with her skin color. She hung herself in jail.

 

My response about race was directly to the OP of the thread, who wanted to talk about black and policing, and I wanted to avoid making an issue about race.

Ok then, what about Eric Garner?  He was strangled to death for what?  Selling fucking cigarettes?  If he was white, there's no way that cop would've killed him in cold blood like that.

 

Her death in jail is suspicious, but nothing definite has come yet. For all we know it was suicide. The investigation has not been released yet to my knowledge.

I remember the dash cam video awhile back. The cops choice of words was not good, but I'm pretty sure she was arguing with the cop too for the stop.

People said the same thing about up and coming college football running back Ron Settles back in the early 80s, he drove through Signal Hill California, got pulled over for no good reason and sent to jail, then the cops claimed he hung himself, then his family hired Johnnie Cochran, who got Michael Baden to do an autopsy on Ron, and according to him there was no way that Ron had hung himself(this was backed up by inmates at the jail who mentioned that they were regularly beaten by the guards).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Settles

There's also the case of Sean Bell(and police tried to delete the entry from Wikipedia in addition to also altering the details of the page about Eric Garner)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.